Kliltschko vs. Jack Johnson

This is what Toney proved ... that size means **** for the right fighter in most match ups ... Toney took on the biggest hitters in the heavyweight division that would fight him, Rachman and Peter, and old and fat took their best and exploited their weaknesses ... surely you don't praise Peter for winning a decision over a 39 year old former middleweight champion ... it was not Schmeling flattening Walker in there ...

Glad to hear you appreciate the timeless greatness of Jack Johnson !

 

No, I don´t praise Peter for anything, imo he´s the most overrated hw out there in the moment - with the exception of Vitali perhaps.

Toney proved nothing. Rahman had a solid career but was already past it when he faced Toney and never anything special. And Peter is so crude and sloppy. And both aren´t shws. Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschkos would have beaten Toney badly.
Toney proved himself very good at mw, smw and cw but he didn´t prove anything at hw beside that he was able to beat up fighters that were past it or very crude and sluggish. I never got why he got ranked so highly.

 

I disagree. Neither Klit brother would or could fight Rachman who was a very hard heavyweight puncher and possessed some skills ...Peter bounced Jr. all over the floor and if is in shape will crush either brother in the future if they make it into the ring with him ... to me Toney proved a ton (no pun) ..

 

An exageration but Toneys best wins are on par with Vitalis best wins despite being old, fat, untrained and 5'9 simply by being a master of slipping and countering, yet were supposed to believe slipping and countering isn't important.

Beat Ruiz when he was top4

Beat Peter when he was top3 to be robbed, then lost to Peter

Beat Holyfield when he was still top10

Drew and won against Rahman who was top5

Beat Jirov (cruserweight) who would be regarded a top10 HW

Steroids or no steroids aside (most heavyweights are on them anyway) hes a middleweight who fought the best at heavyweight without even training. And I rather see a Toney at heavyweight who was trained in peak physical condition than a Toney who was. YET A PRIME JACK JOHNSONS DEFENSE, SPEED, FOOTWORK AND COUNTER RIGHT ISNT AN IMPORTANT STRENGTH IN THIS MATCH UP OR IN MODERN HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING????

 

atsch


You just lost any crediblity you had there mate. Toney lost just about every round of the rematch. A horrible, one-sided beating. How can you call that one a close decision??


As for Toney taking on big hitters, he was offered fights with both Klitschko's on seperate occasions when he desperately needed a title shot after he got busted for steroids again, and guess what, he turned both down, because he knew the outcome of the fight would be a one-sided battering. If you twice lose a decision to limited Peter and should've lost too Rahman on decision, what do you think will happen against either Klitschko?

 

Firstly he did turn down Klitchko bouts but he was after purse parity being a big draw and got offered a low ball some, was he even offered 30%?

Secondly he was clearly way past his prime at 39yos and way overweight against Peter

Thirdly this isn't about an Old Fat Overweight 5'9 James Toney its about a Prime Johnson who had many of the same skills with greater physical assets

 

The Ruiz fight and the Jirov fight just don´t count. Toney was on roids against Ruiz - and that wasn´t the only time - and the Jirov bout was not at hw. He also never beat Rahman actually, he has a draw and a nc against him.

So he has a win over a far past it Holyfield and a win and a loss against the crude Peter. That proves absolutly nothing. Additionally, Toney never fought against the shw. So, how did he prove the shws are overrated. There´s no logic in there.
While Vitali has not a good resume by any standard he has a better hw resume than Toney.

 

sorry but what are you talking there? A fight between Rahman and Wlad was never really talked about, they were just at the top during different times. And Vitali didn´t fight Rahman because he got injured again and again. He wasn´t afraid of Lewis and that guy is far more dangerous than Rahman.

Peter did what? Do you actually live in the real world? Peter won three rounds, all of them only due to KDs and two of them came of illegal punches. Wlad gave Peter a boxing lesson.

Toney proved nothing at hw with the exception of having chin which is too good for his own good.

 

I agree Johnson is far greater and far far better at hw than Toney but the things you and he grant are writing about Toney are just bs.

 

Firstly I'm ignoring Roids, because if you don't you can eliminate 95% of the top10 heavyweights in the last 10years. The Ruiz fight was a pure schooling and any version of Toney beats him from 1990-2005

Secondly your downplaying his wins but Rahman, Holyfield, Peter, Ruiz have been some of the top heavyweights of the last 10years

Thirdly the last Rahman fight was a quit job by Rahman

 

Don't put me in the same boat as He Grant, I try to stick to facts, I don't rate Toney that high at heavyweight, if Toney had stayed in his 2003 shape he could have developed an excellent legacy, Toney wasted allot of his potential

 

You can´t ignore facts. It´s a fact that Toney was roided up but where is the prove the other 95%? You can´t build up an argument on nothing but on an unproven accusation. Well, you can but than you won´t be taken serious.

I´m not downplaying anything. He was roided up against Ruiz, he never beat Rahman and Holyfield was far past it. He won a close decision and lost a wide one to Peter. That are the facts. Writing otherwise just makes you look like a fanboy.

 

If toney would have had the work ethics of Hopkins we would talking about a top10-20 atg. But he didn´t just like Jones picked money instead of legacy, just like Calzaghe beat up bums during most of his career, just like Hamed quitting after getting a beating, just like Tyson having mental issues. They all could have been much better but fact is: They aren´t.

 

First of all, he was 38, not 39 against Peter. And Peter was in bad shape for the first fight as well (his own fault, of course)... after making improvements and training harder, he annihilated Toney in the rematch.
James did decline himself, which just goes to show you how many hard shots he took in their first fight. It was close, but if he had anything less than a cast iron jaw, he would've been knocked out in that one.


As for physical assets, Toney has a much better chin than Johnson. And he's definitely going to need that, as both Klitschko's have monstrous power. In terms of skill he is also far ahead of Johnson, which, again, is hardly a black mark on him since there's a 90 year gap between them.