Kliltschko vs. Jack Johnson

Agreed - Lamon clearly hits harder than Ketchel. I think he hits harder than Johnson too, while we're at it.

 

Here are the first pictures that i found via google, of him at ~210lbs:

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Feel free to point out exactly where he looks anything but a trim fighter. You think this is what "bloated" and "bulked up" looks like? From the pictures you certainly can't tell he's a bulked up light heavyweight/cruiserweight.

 

Klitschko's skills, as they are now, are not impressive. You call that "selling him short", I call it objective analysis. You can give me isolated examples of a double jab or a hook off the jab or whatever and it will not overcome several full fight displays of undeniable limitations.

I cannot see how you could seriously argue that the skills Klitschko demonstrates on film exceed those of Jack Johnson's on film.

This is in no way a condemnation of his effectiveness and I've clearly stated that. Frankenstein had the strength of 100 men. Klitschko's limited skills are more than compensated by his physical frame and the powers emating from it. He is a tough man to beat especially when you throw in today's crop of journeymen masquerading as contenders. But to put him in there with true great HW champions of the 20th century is to invite an expose because guys like Louis and Johnson are not in the least bit likely to be overwhelmed by giants.

Do you believe that Klitschko ranks as a great fighter -p4p HW or H2H? Or are you merely arguing that Klitschko is underrated by some ESB posters?

 

Agreed. Power Puncher needs to amend his statements ob Byrd being bloated.

 

Prime Tua was against Ibeauchi, after that he was post-prime both were a little ruined from it. HE wasnt too far past prime when Byrd got to him but he wasnt at his best and its definately Byrds career defining win. Most boxers did outbox Tua though its just most got caught up with

Povetkin beat Byrd only a year after Wlad did

Byrd did have a bit of a belly at heavy and was blown up with bloated not thick muscles and not too strong. HEs a natural middleweight/168lber

 

I wouldn't say he's great as it stands now, although he is getting close. We'll see how he does the next few years. Also note that currently active fighters are rarely ranked as high as they do post-retirement. Lewis has certainly gained a good few spots up the ladder after he retired, as has Holyfield, and your idol, Roy Jones. Well, officially they're not retired yet, but their primes are long enough ago for people to start appreciating how good they were at their best.


I'd rank Klitschko around 20 right now. One thing i will say. I would make him even money or favorite against guys like Patterson, Carnera, Baer, Sharkey, Holmes, Tunney, Walcott, Charles, and perhaps a few others. I'm purely talking head to head now, by the way.

 

Dr. Steelhammer can beat all the Barretts, Brocks, Bothas, Brewsters, and Byrds on the planet and I wouldn't stick a "great" sticker on him. He needs a notable challenge -a real challenge. Generally speaking, 'Great' has a burden before assuming that label -you gotta beat great.
Non-great Sam Peter tested him, sure, but in so doing, he emphasized limitations we haven't even broached yet.

Post-career consideration does often help us appreciate what we had, but the examples you gave midgetize the giant in question. Holyfield has serious scalps on his spear -Tyson, Foreman, and Bowe among them. Jones has Toney and Hopkins. Lewis has great scalps as well -albeit graying ones: Holyfield, Tyson... How about Wlad? Who does he have? Sanders? A 41 year old Ray Mercer? He's 32 --who's on the horizon?

Head-to-head, I would agree that he'd be extremely difficult for most of those HWs under 200 lbs. Holmes, however, would not have a problem with him -even in his 40s. Carnera is interesting. I do believe that Carnera demonstrates a better command of the Sweet Science than Klitschko.

 

Head to head, WK blows away many vaunted heroes on this board.

In the context of what he did in his own time vs. what others did in theirs', he is not as impressive.

 

Well, it's not his problem that the heavyweight division is not popular anymore nor American. He certainly has string up a large number of wins over contenders, what else can you do?


Are the guys Holmes feasted on great? Witherspoon? Old Norton? Shavers? All fine fighters, but not greats. Were Tyson's opponents great? Non-great Lyle tested Foreman, but in doing so, emphasized limitations we haven't even broached yet. See how that works both ways?

 

Yes you can clearly see he is clinically obese.

 

My favorite fighter on the planet is Panamanian. My third favorite fighter on the planet is Nicaraguan. My fourth favorite is Mexican. The bias some the Europeans assume Americans have out here is off base. I'm writing you not far from the Boston Tea Party and the missnamed Boston Massacre -where we burned effigies of George III before every meal- and I have yet to meet a fighter, trainer, anlayst or historian with a trace of xenophopia. Especially against the British! Fans in the stands behave differentely -but that only adds drama. I loved the British singing even while Hatton was being counted out against Floyd. Hell, I remember New Jersey fans chanting Doo-ran while a New Yorker was getting mutilated by the Hands of Stone. That behavior isn't uncommon -and aside from a very few American posters out here who get carried away with their nationalism -it's anything but the norm out here.

More to the point: The HW division's popularity has nothing to do with what I see. However, the dearth of serious foes is most certainly Wlad's problem if he or his fans want to stick a P4P ATG crown on his head. The fact is, it isn't MY problem if he was did not prove his mettle by overcoming threats instead of a steady diet of journeymen. Whether he avoids guys (and I don't believe he does) or whether his era is a weak one makes no difference. He ain't great at this rate.

I do not.

First off, I qualified what I had said by beginning it with a "generally speaking". I'll humor you anyway....

Holmes did not have a particulary incredible diet himself during his reign.... but Norton's last stand was a pretty damn dangerous one. Norton defeated Ali and that propels him into higher standing than anyone of Wlad's. Witherspoon was more talented than any of Wlad's guys. What's more, Holmes went on to prove how great he was by beating a prime Mercer -who had just scrambled an undefeated Morrison's brains with about the most hellacious punching I've seen this side of Ruddock. Holmes was a middle-aged man.

Tyson destroyed a great figher in Spinks. He destroyed a great fighter in Holmes. He destroyed many solid fighters and several ex-champions. Foreman was limited but you cannot at all compare Wlad's resume to his. He's proven. Tyson was proven. Holmes was proven. Wlad is not. He is not on the threshold of greatness. Not yet anyway and I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

They are both total opposite characters. Wlad would have very much respect for Jack, while Jack himself wouldn´t have much for Wlad - or at least he wouldn´t show any. That´s another point. Wlad is not the most stable mentally and I think Johnson would be able to get into his head.

I think with his behaviour JAck could really upset Klitschko but I also think that this would work against the Ukrainan.

 

So, Tyson´s wins over Spinks and Holmes are now on the level of Ali´s wins over Frazier or Foreman? Sorry but the Spinks and Holmes Tyson fought weren´t great. Wlad also destroyed/beat many solid contenders. Yeah, he has not past-prime great to feast upon and that is a knock on his resume but it´s still very solid and if he goes on like he did for the last 2-3 years for another 2-3 years I think he will end up as a Top20 hw.

 

Well i wasn't talking specifically about you, but more in general. I'll bet you that if Wladimir Klitschko, Rusland Chagaev and Alexander Povetkin were called Joe Gardner, John Gray and George Adams that they'd be more popular and as a consequence, higher regarded. Just look at how highly Bowe is rated despite having a three year prime.

Yeah, but at the same time, Norton would be lucky if he could make it out of the first few rounds with Wlad. And this was an old Norton (compiled a record something like 2-2 afterwards with two devastating first round KO losses and getting knocked down twice by Scott Ledoux) against a prime, arguably peaking Holmes. And Spinks surely is a great fighter, but not a great heavyweight. Not at all. He beat an underprepared, aging Holmes, who clearly beat him in the rematch when he did came in well-prepared. And during his next challenged, he was layed out in 90 seconds, about as easy as McNeely and Marvis Frazier were. Again, Klitschko would dust Spinks as well as the old Holmes that Tyson faced.