Lacy in determining Zag and Taylor's stock

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Stovepipe, Dec 1, 2008.


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  1. Stovepipe

    Stovepipe Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How can one simultaneously state that Calzaghe is extremely over rated and beating Lacy was nothing special and yet, Jermaine Taylor, off his lesser victory to an inferior version of Lacy compared to what Joe did against him, should be ranked #2 at supermiddle, right now.

    I mean, OK, if you are going to say Taylor deserves #2 right now at super middle, you must also think of Calzaghe as something special, right?

    I suppose the counter argument is, no, the Lacy win wasn't a big deal for either man, and that Jermaine earned his stripes with his middleweight defenses but that leads to a whole other argument about those defenses.

    Personally I think both fighters are very talented, but I don't think I would rate Taylor in the top ten at super middle until he beats someone in the top ten, which Lacy was not when they fought. And that is even if you are rating him that high on his past performances. He may be better than many of the top ten guys, but I think he needs to fight one to take their spot.
     
    Stovepipe, Dec 1, 2008
    Stovepipe, Dec 1, 2008
    #1
  2. pauliemayweathe

    pauliemayweathe Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    JT is one of the ten best fighters at 168....who cares who he fought...that is not even up for debate
     
    pauliemayweathe, Dec 1, 2008
    pauliemayweathe, Dec 1, 2008
    #2
  3. Marnoff

    Marnoff Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I would definitely have Taylor in the Top 10.
     
    Marnoff, Dec 1, 2008
    Marnoff, Dec 1, 2008
    #3
  4. Stovepipe

    Stovepipe Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah maybe I am out of line. I actually use the performances of the fighter and consider the level of opposition to determine how I rank them.

    Most people seem to use a system of how they think a fighter would do against another if they faced each other. In that case it is purely subjective. The performances themselves, although there is still a level of subjectivity when evaluating the performances, at least we have something to look at.

    So I think it is perfectly fair to have a possibly inferior fighter, who has done more in the ring against better opposition at the weight, ranked above a guy who would likely beat him if they ever faced. Once that hot shot actually proves it in the ring, that is when I move him up the rankings.

    For instance, without any fight at lightweight, I wouldn't put Manny nor Marquez in the top five. But they both fought guys in the top ten. Taylor didn't do that.

    I wouldn't rank Taylor ahead of Bute, Andrade, Inkin, Froch or Kessler, not yet. And there is a chance he beats them all. But I don't rank based on what he could do, what he might do, what he should do, I rank based on what he did, how he did it and against whom.

    Otherwise rankings lose all meaning and I think that is why we have so many arguments over them. It isn't fair to just skip all these guys who have earned their spot at the weight simply because Taylor is well, he is Jermaine Bad Intentions Taylor god damn it. End of debate!!! OK. Now go prove it against somebody in the divsion near the top.

    Lacy
    Aint
    It
     
    Stovepipe, Dec 2, 2008
    Stovepipe, Dec 2, 2008
    #4
  5. heidegger

    heidegger Guest

    I sort of agree.

    Rank Taylor at like 5 or 6. He's only beaten Lacy.

    But on the other hand an accademic system of ranking denies what you know in your heart to be true. i.e. Taylor schools Bute.
     
    heidegger, Dec 2, 2008
    heidegger, Dec 2, 2008
    #5
  6. DAGOBOY

    DAGOBOY Active Member Full Member

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    he may be the number 2 at 168 but he hasnt really earned it. i would still think he takes at least one more fight a 168 to get acclimated to the weight. one more fight then knock off one of the belt holders then he could really show why he has the ranking of #2.
     
    DAGOBOY, Dec 2, 2008
    DAGOBOY, Dec 2, 2008
    #6
  7. Cobbler

    Cobbler Shoemaker To The Stars Full Member

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    Who are the ten SMWs who you rank ahead of Lacy?

    I'm not sure I can find ten.

    You have a valid-ish point, but it's not like Andrade, Inkin or Froch have beat anyone obviously better than Lacy either...
     
    Cobbler, Dec 2, 2008
    Cobbler, Dec 2, 2008
    #7
  8. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    unless there is an undisputed champ, your rankings should reflect who the best fighters in the division are. As of now for me Taylor is at #3 behind Kessler and Bute.
     
    PH|LLA, Dec 2, 2008
    PH|LLA, Dec 2, 2008
    #8
  9. Brickhaus

    Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

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    Lacy was consensus top 10 when Taylor beat him. Hell, he still appears to be consensus top 10 for some stupid reason. Also, Lacy was clearly a better fighter when Calzaghe fought him than when Taylor fought him. Anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves.

    Based on skills and talent, it's a tough sell to leave Taylor out of the top 3 at SMW. I can MAYBE see Inkin rated above him, and Kessler and Bute should clearly be ranked above him, but there ain't a whole lot else out there. In terms of resume, sadly, Lacy is still a better win than the best win on most of the other guys at 168's resumes. I mean, Froch's best win is over a completely shot Robin Reid, Inkin's best win is over Zuniga, Miranda's best win is over David Banks, Andrade's best win is over Stieglitz, and Bika's best win is over Manfredo. So even if you base it solely on their resume at 168 (without looking at Taylor's time at 160), it's STILL hard to make an argument that Taylor should be outside the top 3.

    Honestly, there's no excuse for having Taylor outside of the top 5 at 168. It's just hating, plain and simple.
     
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    #9
  10. Brickhaus

    Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

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    Who has anyone else (other than Kessler and Bute) beaten? Please, enlighten me.
     
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    #10
  11. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    Stovepipe if you don't rate a fighter in the top10 until he beats someone in the top10, then your top10 will have about 4 fighters.

     
    PH|LLA, Dec 2, 2008
    PH|LLA, Dec 2, 2008
    #11
  12. sonny73

    sonny73 Active Member Full Member

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    Taylor goes into the higher weight division as a non title holder after losing 2 fights in a row and is ranked as high as 5 after one fight.

    Haye goes into the higher weight division as a 3 title world champ (should have been 4 but for politics) beats 2 guys at HW and is not even ranked in the top 10 by Ring Mag.
     
    sonny73, Dec 2, 2008
    sonny73, Dec 2, 2008
    #12
  13. unclepaulie

    unclepaulie Run like an antelope! Full Member

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    Haye's only fought at heavy once since moving up. And he fought a guy who is borderline top 15 at the most generous. At least Lacy was lower-end top ten and a former beltholder coming off 3 decent wins.
     
    unclepaulie, Dec 2, 2008
    unclepaulie, Dec 2, 2008
    #13
  14. Brickhaus

    Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

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    It does seem silly that Haye isn't rated, but Taylor did beat a higher rated opponent in the weight class, and frankly, outside of the top 2 guys, HW is probably stronger at the top than 168 at the moment. 168 is a lot deeper, but it seems like nobody has fought anyone of consequence in the weight class.
     
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    Brickhaus, Dec 2, 2008
    #14
  15. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Why would anyone say Taylor was #2 at smw, after one fight there and one win over a very limited opponent???? How exactly would that see him placed above Bute, Andrade and Froch? Bika, Inkin and Mundine could also be ranked above him depending on your viewpoint. Fail.
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 2, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 2, 2008
    #15
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