Lamar Clark 'I Hurt Cassius Clay'

Senor Pepe was the finest scholar this board has ever witnessed.

His loss is immeasurable.

 

As Chuck Wepner has an official knockdown over Ali while Foreman and Shavers do not,

by this logic, Wepner was a bigger puncher than Foreman or Shavers.

 

Styles. Rocky should have lost the first Lowry fight that the connected fighter was trying to throw/penalized & warned several time for passivity. Also Ali was seemingly going down or badly off balance due to Wepner stepping on his foot before the blow even landed. Not saying it was intentional, & Wepner had a great heart & for the first time ever was able to train full time for that fight.

Told his Manager back up the car, we are going to be millionaires after that shot. Who retorted don't count your money yet, Ali is getting up & he looks pissed. Ali was just out of his league.

 

Seamus, I had wondered what happened to Senor Pepe, did he pass? He and Burt are the two finest boxing scholars East Side has had in the years I've been here. I think Burt may have lessened his needed imput now with the influx of the arrogant pretender posters that have come in. We seldom see Duranimal or other of the really good posters lately, just too much of several who don't know boxing at all.

 

Agreed with you about Wepner and his training for the Ali bout, I remember reading before it that it was the hardest he had been able to train in his career. For the fan of boxings palookas you had to be proud of him lasting that long. Chuck and Scotty LeDoux were pretty much cut from the same cloth.

 

"Chuck Wepner stepped on his foot. We all know this. That has nothing to do with anything."

You missed my point. My point is that an "official" knockdown doesn't prove you hurt the guy or hit that hard.

Billy Fox fought Lowry on even terms twice. I really don't know enough about those fights to comment further.

As for Lowry, he had a reputation for durability. He twice went the distance with Marciano. He also went the distance with Archie Moore and Tiger Jack Fox. He was only stopped 3 times in 148 fights, a much better ratio than by reputation tough fighters like Jake LaMotta or Gene Fullmer or Sonny Liston.

But he was put down for the count by Harry Matthews. I guess that means Matthews was a harder puncher than Moore, Fox, or Marciano?

I think it is a matter of styles. Without film it is tough to judge, but my guess is the short Lowry got under Marciano's punches which the taller men couldn't do.

Nor is this sort of fluke non-knockout that unusual historically. Bert Whitehurst twice went 10 rounds with Sonny Liston, but was KO'd in one minute by Joey Rowan, a non-puncher who had a career total of 14 KO's in 48 fights. Levi Forte was stopped 16 times in 50 fights while going 19-28-3 during his career, but went the full ten with George Foreman.

*I give you this. If my purpose were to denigrate Marciano, I would grab hold of the Lowry fights like a drowning rat grabs hold of driftwood. What else is there? We are talking about the heavyweight champion with the highest knockout ratio against general opposition, champions, ever rated fighters, or fighters rated when he fought them. And, as you relentlessly point out, he was not a big fellow even in his own day. Marciano was outweighed in about 60% of his fights, sometimes by significant poundage. In turn, he rarely had a large weight pull.

**Just to make one thing clear. I only defend Marciano as a puncher in his own era. Fantasy fights across generations make no sense to me.

 

Senor Pepe is alive and well and posting under the name "Il Duce" over at the Boxrec forum. At least I'm pretty sure they're one in the same. The writing style is pretty much identical.

 

Yes its him, he posted here as il duce for a while also and then got banned and came back as Senor Pepe then got banned again, moved to another forum got banned and the resurfaced at Boxrec to single handedly ruin that forum with his brand of lies, racism, hatred, and propaganda.

 

****ing hilarious quotes man!!

 

I can't find any evidence that Il Duce or Senor Pepe were banned from this forum.

I used to read Pepe's posts and never saw anything I consider racist.
Here's a link to his posts:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/search.php?searchid=2896164

Find us a racist post.

 

on Forte-"He got knocked down by Foreman"

What does that really prove? Forte got stopped in 16 of his other 49 fights. He was not at all a durable fighter.

"Forte didn't fight Foreman 2 times either, did he?"

No. Interestingly, there are articles available on the internet from 1990 with Forte claiming this was because Foreman was ducking him and was afraid of Forte. (I'm not kidding about this-such reports are on the internet)

"Also if a fighter knows he can't beat another fighter he might run or grab and hold on so he won't be knocked out."

Like Lowry?

*four of the six men who lasted the distance with Marciano were never rated journeymen. What you just pointed out probably explains them. Also, it is sort of like a top NFL team having trouble one week with a losing team and then blowing out a really good team the next week. Happens all the time. It is a case of getting up for a game, or a fight.

"Deontay Wilder has knocked out everyone he faced."

At this point, how many rated fighters has Wilder faced? When he faces the top men we will find out. Jose Urtain also began his career KO'ing his first 30 opponents. He came to earth when matched with better opponents. Marciano never came down to earth. If Wilder knocks out every rated fighter he fights when he starts fighting them, he will indeed prove himself a really top puncher.

"Marciano wasn't outweighed in most of his bouts"

Well, boxrec used to post weights, and off their weights Marciano was outweighed by 29 of his opponents. Most of his own weight advantages were marginal, under five pounds. Like most big punchers, he had less trouble (one might argue no trouble) KO'ing the big men he faced.

Marciano fought five men who weighed 213 or above, and KO'd them all in a total of 17 rounds. One of these men was Louis, certainly the best big man (over 210 in shape) of the first half of the century. Johnny Shklor had once been in the top ten. Bill Wilson was a journeyman with some wins over good fighters. Marciano also fought 11 men who weighed 200 or above and KO'd them all. A 213 pound or above man to a 185 pound man is over 15% heavier in body weight-like a 160 pound middleweight fighting a 185 pounder. A 200 pound man to a 185 pound man is still almost 10% of his body weight, like a 160 pounder fighting a good-sized lightheavy. I really don't see your criticism as being valid here.

*as with most big punchers, Marciano had more trouble with men as small or even smaller than he was. A moving target is harder to knock out than a big one more often than not.

"Even for a 180 pound fighter, Marciano's power was overrated."

Well, he is the only fighter I am aware of who KO'd every rated fighter he fought either in the first bout or the rematch, and also KO'd every ever-rated fighter he fought in either the first bout or the rematch. He also has the highest KO percentage (43 of 49) of any heavyweight champion. That KO percentage is actually as high against ever-rated opposition (14 of 16). Anyone is welcome to conclude he wasn't much of a puncher, but the record certainly weighs in on the other side.

**Anyway, I am happy you bring up all these issues for discussion.

 

What evidence would there be? A trail of bread crumbs? That piece of **** isnt stinking up the forum anymore as either il duce or senor pepe. Thats all the proof you need. Either way I remember when it happened. I couldnt care less whether you THINK he wasnt racist or whether you like his posts. He's a lying POS who does a lot of harm to people trying to learn about the history of boxing who dont know better. Apparently you are one of those who have been hoodwinked.