LaMotta vs. Cerdan II

Of course.

 

Actually I think he would,

 

Cerdan spent most of his career at welterweight fighting nobodies in Europe, was past his prime, and had never faced anyone as good as LaMotta and when he did he lost in lopsided fashion. His injury aside (and he always had a ready excuse when he lost or looked bad and LaMotta injured his hand early in the fight as well) I dont see it happening. He might have been more competitive (and thats up to debate considering he was getting his ass kicked royally before the fall that supposedly injured his shoulder) but I still think he loses. His only real hope is that winning the title was the last time LaMotta was anywhere near his best and even then he was already on the slide and so maybe LaMotta is as "up" for the rematch as he was for the first fight but even then I think LaMotta is just too strong and too good for him. If LaMotta comes in in shape and focused and doesnt have too much trouble making weight the best Cerdan is going to do is head into the late rounds with a lead and get stopped but I dont even see that happening.

 

I agree Cerdan was a natural WW for most of his career.

He may never have fought anyone as good as prime LaMotta, but I think that may be arguable. He beat Holman Williams and whilst he was past prime, I've read that the decision awarded against Williams in his next fight vs LaMotta, was considered debatable.

Georgie Abrams and Tony Zale (KO'd Graziano in his previous fight) were past prime when Cerdan fought them and not as good as a prime LaMotta, but they were decent wins.

 

Would have been a tall order, he lost convincingly the first time, but so did Robinson and he came back to mop the floor with LaMotta over their series .
Not comparing Cerdan to Robinson, just illustrating that LaMotta wasn't the most consistent of fighters and was capable of following up a big win with a stinker.
I consider LaMotta to be a bit overrated

 

Zale was as shot as shot gets when he fought Cerdan and his performance showed that. Abrams was at the tail end of his career and would only win one more fight. His fight with Cerdan was close. Jake fought Williams in Williams hometown and the crowd wasnt happy Williams lost despite Jake being the aggressor the entire fight and building up an early lead that Williams couldnt overcome. All three judges for the fight were local and all were well respected. Cerdan fought Williams in his Cerdans adopted hometown and won a decision many thought he didnt deserve as well and as was typical with him when he struggled he claimed he had a bad hand for the fight. All of those guys, Williams, Abrams, and Zale were past their prime when Cerdan fought them. I stand by the notion that LaMotta was the best Cerdan ever fought and I dont think it was a coincidence or accident that Cerdan lost to him after struggling against the fighters who were contenders but a notch below LaMotta.

 

Fair enough. I can't claim to confidently disagree with your assertion that the LaMotta, Cerdan fought was the best opponent he faced.

I agree Williams was past prime. I'd read his decision loss to LaMotta in his next fight was disputed, but haven't researched it in depth.

As you say, the LaMotta vs Cerdan fight certainly supports your position in this regard.

 

If you are impressed by that I guess it depends on how highly you rate Graziano. I dont. The only legitimate MW contender Graziano ever defeated was Zale, who after the war was past his prime. Graziano spent his entire career beating up on welterweights and lightweights (and some of those were fixed). He shouldnt have even been rated at MW but he couldnt make WW and was immensely popular and owned by the mob so he was given preference over everyone in the top ten at MW, all or most of which would have kicked his ass. So no, when Zale beats Graziano I dont take that as evidence that he wasnt shot. I take the fact that Zale had to fight Graziano three times life or death to prove who was better as evidence that Zale was past his prime.

 

Cerdan fought practically one-handed for 8 rounds.

The American sportswriter, Red Smith, who covered the fight said that, despite this:

'Cerdan won the second round big and the third and fifth by lesser margins. A master at handling his opponent, turning him, tying him up, slipping or blocking his punches, and setting him up, Cerdan could do none of this one-handed. He couldn't even stick his left out to ward off his foe ... it is difficult to believe LaMotta would have a chance with a two-handed Cerdan.'

That's good enough for me.

Plus, I've never seen footage of LaMotta that impressed me as much as Cerdan's victory over Zale.

Cerdan wins the rematch by decision.

 

Made his career beating up welterweights. (Check)

Hooked up with the mob. (Check)

Sure you’re not talking about LaMotta here?

 

And we have photos of LaMotta's hand swollen twice its size in his dressing room after the fight. The difference is he wanted it more.

Red Smith was in the minority by a long shot by not giving LaMotta a chance against a "two handed Cerdan". How many of Cerdan's fights did Smith even see for him to call Cerdan a master at anything. Cerdan fought in the USA and Canada a grand total of seven times. Four of the five fights Smith might have covered were against fighters either past their primes or club fighters. Again, Im not impressed by Cerdan looking great against a completely shot Zale or clubfighters like Harold Green and LaVern Roach. His fight with a past his prime Abrams was close and he got dropped multiple times and almost stopped by Anton Raadik (of course he had an excuse for that one as well).

You can add these to Red Smith's opinion:

Doug Vaughan
Windsor Daily Post
Jake carried the fight from bell to bell. Never once did he stop throwing punches. In only one rounds, the second, was he outfought. The third round was even. In the opinion of this writer the new champion won all the rest in convincing fashion.

Glen Engle
Associated Press
In the third round it was all LaMotta again and Jake said he was "sure" then he had Cerdan licked.

Jack Cuddy
United Press
Regardless of his injury, the black-haired, gold-toothed French veteran appeared a beaten fighter when his handlers called Dr. Joseph Cahalan, physician for the Michigan Boxing Commission, into the ring after the ninth round to examine the shoulder.
Cerdan was staggered on several other occasions (besides the half knockdown in the first) during the furious fighting, and jake, of New York was knocked back on his heels several times in the second and fifth rounds by Cerdan's shorty right hooks to the head. Those two were the only rounds Cerdan won on the United Press score sheet.

Jack Hand
Associated Press
Cerdan, who was at 159 1/4 in today's second weigh-in, was simply no match for an aroused 159 1/4 pound LaMotta who hammered him almost at will. Only sheer courage kept the galant Casablancan on his feet through the last five rounds of savage two-fisted beating.

James Dawson
New York Times
Cerdan never was quite up to the expectation of his supporters. He fought valiantly in a recovery sustained through the second and third rounds. He jarred LaMotta to his heels with successive short, choppy rights to the jaw, head, and face, bleeding from a cut over the right eye sustained in that boisterous first round. Cerdan got a cut on the bridge of the nose in the second as LaMotta jabbed repeated lefts to the face when he wasnt sinking intermittent rights and lefts to the ribs and wind. After the third round, however, there was nothing to the battle. LaMotta swarmed all over the defending champion.

Tommy Devine
Detroit Free Press
The 27-year old LaMotta was given the 160 pound title when Cerdan's handlers wouldnt permit him to answer the bell for the 10th round.
Cerdan, taking a merciless beating from virtually the opening gong, wobbled to his corner at the end of the ninth round. He was obviously in trouble.

Lyall Smith
Detroit Free Press
There was no doubt about who was the better fighter the night of June 16 at Brigss Stadium. LaMotta, the Bull from the Bronx who is built like a heavy water-glass balanced on pipestem legs, was that fighter.
Cerdan was fighting no tired Tony Zale this time. The only thing tired about LaMotta was his arms and they were wearied from throwing leather.

Gene Ward
New York Daily News
Gave LaMotta 6 rds, 2 for Cerdan and one 1 even.
The favored clouter from Casablanca was staggered in the opening round, buffeted and beaten groggy by the seemingly tireless Bronx Bull through the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth frames and then failed to come out from his corner as the bell sounded for the 10th.
Not that this Detroit crowd of 22, 182 cared a hoot for Cerdan's excuses valid or not.
As far as the fans who saw it tonight, Jake just plain beat his man by superior strength and power of his punches.

Charles Einstein
INS
The 26 year old kid from the Bronx, a pound lighter than Cerdan's 159 1/4 and a 2 to 3 underdog in the betting, led every step of the way and won his fight.

Wilfred Smith
Chicago Tribune
As the nine rounds were fought, there was no question of LaMotta's superiority. Only Cerdan's stamina and determination kept him on his feet, while he received one of the most brutal lickings we have witnessed.

Charles Cain
Associated Press
LaMotta took command from the opening bell and even in the first round when Cerdan's shoulder was okay, Jake won the round on the cards of the three ring officials. After the first round, every rounds followed about the same pattern. That called for Jake -an 8 to 5 underdog -to cut loose with a barrage of punches that Cerdan in trouble.

Tony Cordaro
Des Moines Tribune
LaMotta, 8 to 5 underdog in prefight betting, was a bit sorry that Cerdan's injury had made his victory easier. The reformed Bronx "bad boy" felt he could have taken Cerdan regardless of the injury, and the way Jake started out most of the crowd agreed with him.

Nat Fleischer
Ring Magazine
Even with Cerdan one hundred percent physically fit throughout the bout he was doomed to defeat. While Cerdan's injury was more severe than that suffered by LaMotta, a badly swollen left hand is almost as much a handicap as torn ligaments in the shoulder. On the basis of injuries, it was pretty much an even-stephen affair, but in severe punishment, in no middleweight title bout of recent years had a fighter tossed so many blows at an opponent as LaMotta at Cerdan.

Alan Rosenfeld biographer of Charley Burley was at the fight and told me there was no doubt in his mind that LaMotta would have beaten Cerdan injured or no.

Leon Thompson, Tony Zale's sparring partner, who had sparred with Cerdan in an exhibition for the press and had seen LaMotta fight live and box in the gym told me that while he liked Cerdan, thought he was a good fighter and thought he was a really nice guy he didnt think he could ever beat LaMotta. He thought LaMotta was a notch above Cerdan.

 

The difference is LaMotta also fought his fair share of ranked middleweights and light heavyweights. You can count the ranked middleweights Graziano fought and beat on one hand without using five fingers.

I think there is a big difference in being owned by the mob (high ranking mobster Eddie Coco being Graziano's defacto manager) and being protected by the mob, moved up the rankings by the mob without facing tough competition, etc. than LaMotta who was self managed and wouldnt give over a percentage of himself to the mob so he was effectively frozen out before having to throw a fight to get a shot at the title when you had been ranked in the top 3, usually top contender, for years and even then, when you get your title shot you have to give your purse up to the mob and $50,000. Yeah, thats really comparable to the preferential treatment Graziano got. I wont even go into how the mob forced Jake to sell the two promotional venues he owned to them and stole the fighters he managed. Anyone who thinks Jake was a mob fighter has their head up their ass or doesnt know what they are talking about.

 

Yours is a very kind (to LaMotta) interpretation.

Most people consider throwing a fight in return for favors from the mob to be doing business with them. It literally is by definition doing business with them.

Most people consider handing over valuable assets to the mob at pennies on the dollar to be an act friendly to the mob, much less handing over his fighters. You interpret it somehow to be an act of defiance to the mob. Most likely if he did those things, he owed the mob … wonder how that transpired.

He worked with the mob both during and after his career. He was handed a title shot because he did the mob a favor. Put whatever lipstick you want on that pig and it still looks like and smells like a pig.

(Notice how you ignore how much of Jake’s resume is built on fighting welterweights while himself coming in over the middleweight limit, thus having major weight advantages in many of his most important fights. Also notice how you don’t find many fights where Jake came in weighing in the low 160s taking on guys who were over 175, so it always seemed to work just the one way. Hmmm.)

BTW, I’m not saying Graziano was a better middleweight than Jake. But two of the main criticisms you made of Rocky applied equally to LaMotta — beating up on smaller men and being in business with the mob.