LaMotta vs. Cerdan II

Not really ... " most " people actually think that if LaMotta " played ball " with the mob more than he fought them by a country mile for YEARS ... actually has their head up their asses as he pointed out to you already !!! Nice try ****er !!

I hate Willie pep ( check )
I hate Jake Lamotta ( check ) .. and go off topic to bash him as many times as I can in every thread I possible ( check )
I DKSAB ( check )

I thought we were talking about Saintpat ? ... we are ( CHECK )

 

He could have ,but my money would have been on Jake.
I used to think highly of Cerdan ,but Klompton changed my opinion and I now have him about 15/20 on my middle weight list
I also used to dismiss another French middle Marcel Thil as just a stop gap champ, but Klompton made me look at him again and I now rate him higher.
I can't abide Klompton's manner, nor condone his manic rudeness , but he does take the trouble to steep himself in his subject,before commenting on it.His comments here reinforce that,imo.

 

Yeah and I guess the local grocer who is forced to pay protection money to the mob or have his store burned down is "playing ball" with the mob as well. Jesus, what a ****ing distorted world view you have. Talk about victim blaming. Anyone the mob extorts is in bed with the mob in your view. Got it.

 

TLDR.

 

of course you didnt. stick your fingers in your ears and pretend your minority opinion is the only one that exists. I mean, after all, you only need red smiths opinion. Lol

 

It's not that at all.

I'm happy to discuss different points of view but I don't come on here to be lectured so do it with someone else.

 

Grow a thicker skin or stop posting obtuse opinions on a public forum. If you are going to reply to my post by saying one opinion is all you need to make up your mind then expect me to answer. From now on when you post ill be sure to check and make sure your opinion jives with Red Smith, otherwise I will just continue to assume confirmation bias on your part.

 

" Lamotta wasn't the most consistent of fighters" I agree with that , and Lamotta had a lot going on in his life at that time. Which is why I think Cerdan could pull it off by a close decision.

 

I assume you posted this in reply to me even though you quoted yourself. Or maybe you just find yourself more agreeable with your own point of view.

We disagree on Jake’s mob involvement. You want him to be a victim. Probably think he was a victim of his wives running into his fists too, and of poor underage girls that he turned out and pimped/trafficked taking advantage of kindly old Jake.

Ever ask how he managed to get away with running underage prostitutes without the mob’s consent? They control that racket.

I don’t think the mob did anything but hand Jake a title shot in return for him doing business and doing them a favor. He said he was offered six figures to do it (seems like a lot to bet on a fairly routine fight to make that back plus a huge profit) and said he turned it down … but we don’t know that he wasn’t actually paid. Just Jake’s word for it, and we know what a fine upstanding citizen he was so why would he lie?

Oops, he told the commission at the time he didn’t throw that fight and that he had a preexisting injury with a doctor’s testimony to back him up … but 13 or so years later he claimed it was the mob. Both cannot be true, so we know he’s a liar. And when the Kefauver Committee pressed him, he suddenly forgot or didn’t know exactly which of his mob buddies arranged the fix … sounds ilke covering for people to me.

So that’s (a) throwing a fight for the mob, (b) covering for them in sworn testimony and, according to you (c) selling the mob his property and turning over his fighters for pennies on the dollar. There’s a word for those things — it’s called ‘doing business.’

Now if you want to post some supportive links and documentation of something other than Jake’s word (which cannot be trusted as we’ve seen) that this was all against his will and the mob had hits on him or something, I’m happy to read that.

But we know you consider opinions and posts contrary to your take to be ‘obtuse’ because you are, after all, the authority on all things and thus anyone not agreeing must be an idiot. LOL.

If it walks like a rat and talks like a rat and smells like a rat, it’s probably a rat. Jake sure did a lot of business with the mob not to have any association with them.

 

This is what Im talking about. Youve seen a movie and read obviously very little on the subject and extrapolate that Jake was running underage prostitutes for the mob lol. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a taped conversation from the late 1970s between Vikki and an attorney worked for the Miami DAs office. In the conversation the attorney is telling Vikki in confidence that Jake was framed by the Miami police for not paying kickbacks to them, a common practice by them at the time he claimed. Which makes a lot more sense than Jake running prostitution for the mob and yet still getting arrested and prosecuted or running prostitution without the mobs blessing and getting arrested as a reprisal, which of course would defeat your argument that he was working for the mob….


Jake was a boxer, manager, and promoter in a sport literally dominated during his time by the mob. Show me someone involved in the sport at that time who didnt have something to in some way, tenuous or otherwise, with the mob. Carmen Basilio gets a ****ing documentary made about him called “Fighting the Mob” and his manager was literally a mob manager who paid kickbacks up to the mob in exchange for all of Basilios title shots. And thats an example of a paragon of virtue during the era lol. Life isnt nearly as black and white as you seem to think. Crawl out of your moms basement and live a little and youll soon realize this.

Youre out of your depth and clearly have a bug up your ass about LaMotta and therefore cant bring anything to support your argument but your imagination so Id suggestion you find a subject you are more versed in to debate with some one, scrubbing toilets perhaps?

 

I should clarify for everyone, that Klompton doesn't say what he means; he's so scared about communicating with others on the forum that he shakes so bad and mistyped everything. Too bad he doesn't proofread before clicking "post reply".

 

The Detroit police investigating the mob found LaMotta had ties there.

Go ahead and ignore all his obvious ties.

I’m glad you claim to have a tape. I’d rather see proof.

What is absolute fact is the following:

* LaMotta admits to throwing a fight for the mob

* He curiously, when put under oath before a government committee where he makes these claims, can’t recall the names of the mobsters involved (to me that’s covering for his mob buddies, but however you interpret it there’s no getting around the fact that he refused to finger the actual mobsters … it’s just vague ‘the mob’ when pressed on the subject)

* Likewise, he claims to have paid $20K for his title shot to ‘the mob’ but again curiously can’t seem to recall who the money was paid to

* According to you, he turned over assets including property and fighter contracts to ‘the mob’ for less than they were worth (to me it sounds like maybe he owed some money to organized crime figures — do you have lots of other examples of honest businessmen in the same time and place just handing over assets to the mob? Did the mob take over every bar, barbershop and venue by strong-arm tactics, or did they just pick Jake’s name out of the phone book? What’s the FULL story there?)

* Jake ran multiple bars in Miami. (The mob generally has some control over liquor licenses and doesn’t allow people who aren’t friendly to them to elbow in on their territory so how did this happen without mob consent?)

* Jake was convinced in a court of law of running a 14-year-old prostitute (that’s just sick) … and we all know the mob controls prostitution.

* The same Vikki you mentioned, who happened to be Jake’s wife for many years, was also a girlfriend of known, convicted mobster Sam Giancana. She also hung out with Frank Sinatra, who had heavy mob ties. By Jake’s admission his own brother dealt with the mob. So basically the people closest to Jake were all mobbed up but he’s as innocent as a baby according to you.

You seem to believe that ‘the mob’ spent all these resources to take things from Jake and even put him in prison. If the mob wanted LaMotta gone, you think they couldn’t have arranged that easily?

Believe what you want to believe but the preponderance of evidence says he was associated with the mob and did business with them. Hell, he admitted it.

 

And what exactly were those ties? Go ahead and post the police report.

And I dont give a **** what youd rather see. It wouldnt make a difference to you anyway because you already have your mind made up.

Plenty of fighters who werent in the mobs hip pocket were forced to throw fights for the mob.

Actually if youd read the Kefauver report youd know that he actually did name names during his deposition in New York prior to the Kefauver hearing. He only "forgot" who those people were during the public hearing because he had been threatened (which you would know if youd read his two books. It was no secret who was the go between for Carbo and who got paid the money. It wasnt LaMotta's buddy, it was the Milo brothers. Again, youd know this if youd read the Kefauver report, Joey LaMotta's unpublished autobiography, and listened to the hours and hours of tapes Vikki made during interviews as research for Raging Bull and her autobiography, all of which I have in my possession.

Again, ignorant comment based on no prior knowledge of the situation, obviously. ""to me it sounds like maybe he owed some money to organized crime figures." Again, this is what Im talking about. You just talk out of your ass without knowing jack **** about the subject. Jake LaMotta was one of the wealthiest fighters in the world before he won a championship because he wisely invested his money from the ring in rental property, lucrative city parking lots, and two venues that he remodeled and began promoting boxing shows out of. He was one of the first promoters, if not the first, to have a television contract broadcasting weekly televised fights from his arena on the Dumont network with Dennis James calling the action. When LaMotta won his title in June of 1949 it was one of the IBC's first promotions. The IBC, as we know now, got the talent for its shows through Carbo and used Carbo to muscle out competition. Part of the IBC's rise to becoming a monopoly in the sport was to maintain control of not only the venues but the television dates and as such Carbo set about intimidating any competition out of the business. LaMotta was one of the first people they went after. Two months after he won the title his last show aired on TV and the following week he promoted his last show before both of his Arenas were sold for pennies on the dollar to the mob. A week later the IBC begins televising weekly boxing shows on both NBC and CBS. So no, they didnt pick LaMotta's name out of the phonebook. They targeted his business specifically because he was the competition. Just like they did to Ray Arcel a few years later when he too tried to promote independently. Or do you think they picked Arcel's name out of the phone book when they cracked him over the head with a pipe, forced him to shut down his operation and leave the sport for two decades? Jake also managed Jackie Labua and Julio Mederos, both fighters were taken from LaMotta by the mob (youd know this as well if youd read the Kefauver report. When Mederos was in hot water over the poisoned orange episode with Harold Johnson his managers tried to get the commission to believe that LaMotta was still his manager in order to pin the trouble on LaMotta yet LaMotta had been forced out earlier that year. Sound like someone the mob was in cahoots with? And yet Graziano, who indisputably was a mob fighter and indisputably received preferential treatment from them and a much easier career path never once dealt with 1/10th the **** that LaMotta did? Funny how that works.

Youve been watching too many movies. Jake opens a (as in ONE) bar in Miami and in your eyes this means he owns several bars that are under mob control. Where exactly is your evidence? And again, if the mob was in charge of liquor licenses and Jake was working for the mob, and couldnt open a bar without them why was he getting arrested and prosecuted? The fact that Jake wasnt paying protection money to the police or in your eyes the mob, whichever group you want believe was running the racket down there, just illustrates that as per usual Jake was going his own way, wasnt going to be controlled by anyone, and paid the price for it. It hardly supports your contention that he was protected by the mob.

Jake wasnt "convinced" of anything. He was convicted of a misdemeanor for operating an establishment at which a 14 year old prostitute operated out of. He was convicted solely on her testimony, i.e. his word against hers. Jake didnt know how the girl was and it was testified that she looked older than she was. In the recording I have Vikki is talking to John Goshgarian who was a public defender in Miami and whose brother Aram worked for the district attorney. Neither he nor Vikki have any love for Jake as can be heard on the recording with them referring to him as "Jake the Fake" and "Jake the Snake" and talking about how everyone hated him because he would never cover anyones drinks at his bar and owed everybody money. He makes a point to mention how the cops hated Jake because he "wouldnt take care of them." Which he later outlines as the reason they framed him and goes on to say that the biggest issue for Jake regarding his conviction was that the prosecutor didnt have enough balls to say "Im not going to take this case, its a bull**** case." He stated that the case got so much publicity he didnt have the balls to walk away from it. This is a guy with inside knowledge who clearly doesnt like Jake but is outlining why the case and resulting conviction was horse****. I think I'll take his word for it over some nobody on the internet named Saintpat who pontificates about **** like an expert when the sum total of his knowledge comes from a paragraph here and a paragraph there and maybe a movie spice up by a healthy dose of his imagination. "Sounds a lot like..." "Looks to me like..." LOL. ****ing moron.

I never said Jake was innocent. Far from it. But I also dont think that because a guys ex wife dates a gangster a decade after you divorce or because she hangs out with Frank Sinatra it doesnt make you a gangster. I guess we can add guilt by association to victim blaming in your starkly black and white world.

 

The day you can clarify anything related to boxing to anyone will be a day to remember for sure. Please, stay in your lane little boy, and keep posting shitty low quality boxing videos on youtube from your parents house while sleepily telling us how you went into the fight with low expectations and werent really impressed so you wouldnt recommend it to anyone. LOL. As I said to you before, I cant recall anyone Ive ever met wasting so much time on something they so clearly dont understand. The only shaking Im doing is when laughing at your asinine comments.

 

Straw man argument. I never once said the mob had Jake put in prison. Nothing even remotely of the sort. Again, you see the world as so black and white. To you Jake was a problem that the mob could have just killed if they wanted to do away with him. The problem with your argument is that the mob is a usury organization. Why kill someone when you can benefit from their existence and they have no recourse? If they wanted Jakes business, they need him alive to extort the business from him and have him sign it over. Likewise with his fighters. What does the mob gain from killing Jake to prevent him from getting a title shot when they can dangle it in front of him and squeeze not only money from him in exchange for it but also gambling winnings by forcing him to throw a fight and the money they got from the IBC by his services in their promotions? You would make a terrible gangster LOL. Its about earning, its not about being some fake tough guy on TV. You know who gets killed by the mob? Guys that they cant get anything out of but an example for others. And what recourse did LaMotta have? They had all of the power, all of the control,

And again, Ill rely on my research and not the imagination of some boxrec warrior.