Lamotta vs. Zale, who wins

lamottas one of my favourite fighters so im not going against him. jake by late stoppage

 

Jake by close ,but clear dec.

 

Both in their primes at 160 pounds, I take Tony Zale over LaMotta in a 15 rd fight.
The Tony Zale before his 4 lost years in the Navy, was a MUCH harder puncher than LaMotta, and was a rugged durable fighter. If LaMotta kod very few opponents,[30 out
of 106 opponents],why would he stop the aptly named "Man of Steel " ? Zale before he went into service licked Al Hostak, Fred Apostoli, Georgie Abrams,who was as good or better than anyone of LaMottas opponents,aside from Ray Robinson...In a 15 round bout Zale outpunches LaMotta for a decision IMO.If Dauthille licked LaMotta, and was winning until the 15th round, Zale who would have murdered Dauthille, should dec Jake...

 

Conspicuous by their absence on Zale's resume are any of the Murderers Row,Abrams is underated true ,but Zale missed a few, very good boys out,imo.

 

B, it is true Tony Zale didn't meet any member of Murderers row. It is also true that Ray Robinson didn't meet any members of "Murderers Row".Yet you and others of the ESB panel,overlook this. Why ? What is good for the goose, is good for the gander,I believe. But Tony Zale did meet Al Hostak,a great dangerous puncher, Fred Apostoli, a truly great middlewight, and the underated Georgie Abrams who gave Robinson hell,
in a disputed decision loss.Zale beat them all.The top champs and contender of Zale's time. Plus Jake LaMotta decisioned the tough Ossie Bulldog Harris twice while Tony Zale flattened Harris in 1 round.Zale is considered the greatest body puncher in history, a powerful two handed puncher, and tough as "steel"...

 

I would bet on a peak tony zale against lamotta. would be a great fight. Tony was past his best on film against graziano but he was still a very complete boxer puncher. He must have been special before the war to stand out and unify recognition as the champ among so many top middleweights.

 

Touche.

 

Zale before WWII in his prime against LaMotta...good fight....MAYBE Zale???

 

Zale is commonly considered among the top five body punchers of all time, along with such luminaries as Frazier, Dempsey and Duran. This is significant here, because there's the likelihood that he'll try to bypass Jake's chin entirely. LaMotta had a solid torso, and superb stamina at his best, but I think Tony's downstairs attack would wear on him as weight draining did during the Valentine's Day Massacre. Zale by late stoppage or close UD rally.

 

SRR was not rated till 1941[as a welter],during that time Burley was rated only that year ,none of the rest of the Row were rated, during Ray's tenure as a contender or Champ at 147lbs.
At 160,Ray came into the ratings in 1949.ONLY Artie Towne was rated that year ,none of the Row were rated during Ray's title reign.
In contrast.
Zale was rated at 160lbs in 1939.Nate Bolden and Lloyd Marshall were both in the top ten with him.
1940.Moore and Bivins were both in the top ten.
1941.Ezzard Charles was no 2.
1942.Moore was 1. Burley 2. Williams 3.Tunero.4 Basora5. Lamotta 6.Chase 7. Booker 8.
1943.Lamotta,Williams,Basora,Moore were all rated.
1944.Lamotta,Williams,CocoaKid,Jack Chase,were all rated.
1945.Williams1. Burley 2.Lamotta3. 4.Graziano ,Wade 7. Lytell 10.
1945 was the first time in
4 years Zale's title was not frozen ,did he take any of the top 3 contenders? NO, he did not.
1946. Lamotta no 1 Burley no 2 did Zale fight them? NO.He fought Graziano.Rated below both.
The war years robbed Zale of his prime years ,but they also robbed quite a few deserving contenders of title shots they deserved.
Zale missed.
Wade,Chase,Booker,Lytell,Burley,Willliams,Towne,Cocoa Kid,Tunero,Basora,Lamotta,Moore,Charles,Belloise.
The only fringe member of the row he fought was Eddie Booker he beat a novice Booker twice then lost to 16 fight Booker by decisive dec ,and did not fight him again.
Zale was a fine fighter, but , playing , pass the parcel, with Graziano , he dodged plenty of bullets lets not kid ourselves.

 

True, but I would like to see the aging Zale get more credit for having that second defense against Graziano. Tony nearly got killed in their first fight, but did come back to knock Rocky out in six. He probably could have taken on a less hazardous challenger for his next defense, but the lethal Graziano got a second shot. Cerdan was no patsy either. It's not as if Zale drew a post war color line to fight pussies.

 

I am a Zale fan but see him with my eyes open.
The Graziano fights were only competitive because Zale had gone back, prime Zale kos Graziano early and hence no trilogy.
Zale was past it against Cerdan but fought his heart out.
I think if Zale had fought Lamotta,Burley ,or Williams ,when they were ranked the top three he would have lost his title.imo.

Graziano was not a *****, but he was ranked below all three I mentioned when he fought Zale.
That may not be drawing a colour line , but it sure looks like drawing a quality line to me.

Graziano was well managed, he kod quite few big welters , he would not beat Lamotta, Cerdan, Burley etc. imo
Graziano wanted no part of Jake ,and neither, it appears, did Zale.
Lamotta fought both Lloyd Marshall and Holman Williams,as well as Eddie Booker.

 

B,a few points to make :We are getting away from the subject of this post, but it might be true that your list of top 10 contenders for Ray Robinson
is correct,aka,the ratings of "black murderers row" 1-10. But each top fighter of that' Club" was as good or better, than the DOZENS of fighters
whoe were white and got a shot at Robbie during those days. I can list so
many fighters that Robinson tackled who would have been utterly destroyed by any of the murderers row fighters Robinson conveniently
"never met"...Fighters don't meet only members of the "top 10 "...
2: When Zale met Graziano for the first time, Tony was almost 34,and hadn't fought in 4 years . He met the prime Graziano, who before their trilogy was in top form..A murderous puncher then, but the 34 year old
rusty and past his peak Zale, still kod the peak Rocky twice.
When Jake LaMotta was 34 years old ,Jake was already retired in 1955,after losing to Billy Kikgore in 1954, his last bout.
What do you think that this 34 year old LaMotta would have done against the prime Rocky Graziano at that age,after a 4 year Army stint ?
I saw both Jake LaMotta and the prime pre Zale Graziano fight, and you are correct that the pre war Zale,would have resulted in a ko over Rocky , thus
preventing their "trilogy". Please note, that Zale in his prime against the likes of Al Hostak,and Fred Apostoli [both would have whipped Graziano],
only lost to 2 fighters at his PEAK, Billy Soose and Billy Conn, both great
BOXERS...LaMotta was no Soose or Conn...Zale beats LaMotta at his best..
Just as rugged and twice the banger IMO. Cheers B...

 

I mentioned SRR ,because you brought him up Burt.I bellieve I showed that the fact he did not meet the ROW can be explained by the fact that none were rated during his contender and championship tenures in two divisions.

Though Ray admitted he had his doubts "I could have licked Burley during my prime years."
Many of the Row were rated during Zale's reign and he met none of them. He also lost to Nate Bolden , who had 16 fights to his 46 [Zale was 25],and Bolden was conceding 6lbs in weight.
I don't think Zale was as durable as Jake, he was kod twice early in his career Jake was not.
Zale certainly had more power than Jake.
Clever boxers could outsmart Zale,the question is ,could he be out hustled by a tough extremely durable come forward swarmer?
I say Jake could do it ,but it would be a hell of a fight.
I don't think much of Graziano, colourful ,and with right hand power, he got Zale at the right time ,but Tony had one good fight left in him and restored the status quo, if only all the trilogy had been filmed.
Apostoli is probably one of the most grievously underated fighters ever.
Abrams too was a hell of a fighter.
Hostak was a terrific puncher,I remember reading an account of his title winning effort in the Boxing Illustrated,"I couldn't Stop My Fists That Night".
These guys along with Freddie Steele and even a 34 year old Jake beat Rocky imo.
Nice talking with you.:thumbsup