Langford on facing Jeannette n Johnson

Read the descriptions in the Aussie papers. Burns was "recovering" from some illness, most likely jaundice because of the yellow tinge of his skin. Just look at that photo of him waiting for the opening bell. He looks terrible, but no way would he admit it publicly. Burns himself claimed he broke (or damaged in some way) one or more of Johnson's ribs because Johnson was secretly taken to Sydney's Coast Hospital immediately after the fight and Burns went to the racetrack via trolley-car.

As for Sam Langford beating Johnson, the fact that a big fellow like Johnson declined to accept Langford's challenge despite a SIX-thousand pound sterling ($30,000 USD) offer from the respected National Sporting Club, speaks volumes. Johnson didn't like to fight anyone he wasn't sure he could beat.

 

Sorry this is bull****.


Burns was the betting favourite for the fight. so how come all the papers said he was ill?:huh
PRODUCE ONE!

The offer from Peggy Bettinson the secretary of the NSC was for £3,000, and was turned down by Johnson because he would have to pay his travelling expenses from the US out of it.
Johnson could get thrice that, fighting easier opponents like Flynn in the States.

Johnson stated countless times he would defend against anyone who could come up with the same amount as Burns received $30,000, its only in about a thousand newspapers of the time.


Johnson had a victory party immediately after the fight among the guests,was the promoter Snowy Baker


Hugh McIntosh, was BURNS best friend, if he was ill he would have postponed the fight. Burns himself said he was in the best shape of his life.

PRODUCE ONE PRIMARY SOURCE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE.

Burns did not go to the racetrack, his jaw was swollen terribly, and thought to be broken, he went home with his wife Jewel.

Burns blew all his purse at the track , but over the next month, that afternoon he went home ,and to bed.


Its ok to hate Johnson, as you obviously do ,but in your case ,it has clouded your objectivity to a ludicrous extent.

 

Mcvey,
You need some help. It seems that everyone who puts forth information that does not reflect positively on Johnson to you is a hate monger. Apparently Ring Rat just made the list. WTF is your problem? What good is putting forth papers, quoting documentaries, or passages in books for you? You won’t believe them. This has been the case for years. Even if they are from Australia, which in this case is the primary source / local paper for this match! There is plenty of evidence Burns was ill and at a low weight. In fact 168 was a low weight for him at the time.

So Burns was friends with referee and promoter. Well it did not help him in the ring as Johnson hit and held the 5’7” Burns all day long, including hitting Burns on the break ( A cheap foul ) that produced the first knockdown. If HD was somehow for Burns in this match, the film shows the reverse as he Let Johnson foul with no repercussions or warnings.

 

Anyone who puts forth statements WITHOUT PRIMARY SOURCED PROOF ,and expects the Forum to take them as gospel is not a hate monger, he is a FOOL.


YOU ARE BOTH.

Ring Rat appears to believe what he wants to believe without requiring proof to support it. Time will tell


Do you actually know what a primary source is?

I ask because you have NEVER produced ONE.

A year before defending against Johnson , Burns scaled 171 lbs for a defence against Gunner Moir , that is 2.5lbs more than when he fought Johnson , for whom he stated he was in top shape.

Was Burns ill for the Moir fight?


If Burns was ill prior to the Johnson fight ,do you not think ,as the defending champion he would have insisted on a postponement?

If Burns was ill ,dont you think McIntosh, the Promoter, /Referee and also his BEST FRIEND, would have accomodated him?



If Burns was ill ,don't you think he would have mentioned it at some point in the following years?

Can you show ONE QUOTE from him to that effect?

Burns was giving public sparring sessions with Al Kaufman up to a couple of days before the fight, the local papers commented on how sharp he looked.

ITS ON FILM!

Having defended against Bill Lang whilst weighing 174lbs, just three months earlier, Burns shed any remaining surplus, and entered the ring against Johnson in top condition, this is according to himself.

Can you produce ONE piece of evidence to support your assertions ?

NO! You waste our time.

 

:d

 

"JOE JENNETTE NEVER EVER WEIGHED MORE THAN 12 POUNDS OVER SAM LANGFORD WHEN THEY FOUGHT"

What did Joe weigh back in December 1905/April 1906? It was my understanding he was a heavyweight at that time.

 

^^^^^ Hart fought nothing like Sam though big bats.... Hart was much more the aggressive swarmer than Sam ever was. So I'm not really seeing a comparison there.. same with Sam and burns. I see no reason to believe Sam would do any better against a fit and capable johnson. Johnson LITERALLY beat the ever loving crap out of Sam when they did meet. Johnson totally controlled and dominated Sam as to leave no doubt who was the superior fighter. Or order to bridge such a gap there had better be some key variables that changed from their previous meeting. I'm not talking about the variable of Sam putting on more weight either.. as that is a wash since johnson put on just as much weight as he grew into his HW body. So what then would've changed... Johnson getting old... okay.. but that isn't Sam fighting a prime johnson. So then what BIG variable change was there to change the outcome of a one-sided beating that Johnson dished out the first time they met?

 

First Conn was greater than Tunney then this. When they fought Langford was completely dominated, knocked down and sent to the hospital afterwards. This was as per an eye witness account by Dan Morgan. His comment concerning Sam's manager proclaiming that sam knocked Johnson down was..."NONSENSE Sam could not even hit Johnson". To pick Sam to knock out Johnson after this type of one sided beating is a huge stretch to say the least. Sam was a great fighter but Johnsons defense was enough to smother any offense.

 

Maybe, but we'll never know for sure since Johnson ducked both Langford and Jeannette, the two most deserving contenders after disposing of Jeffries in 1910. Regardless of some of the opinions expressed here it's clear that many of those in the know back then felt that Langford and Jeannette were the men that Johnson should face next. Here's some excerpts from 1910 articles:

* The Illustrated Record (N.Y. weekly periodical) July 16, 1910
When Johnson met Langford, Sam was a legitimate welterweight and had beaten everything before him. Today, Langford is a hundred and seventy pounder, has a heavier punch and a better knowledge of ring generalship. With the extra weight in his favor Langford thinks he can trim the champion and his willingness to bet $10,000 on the side if Johnson will give him a try at it.

* The Illustrated Record - July 30, 1910 - Interview with Bob Armstrong (sparring partner of the likes of Sam Langford, James Jeffries...and I believe Johnson as well along the way)
According to Armstrong, Langford has the best chance of any of the contenders just now to beat Johnson, and Johnson knows this too, says Bob. "Langford is just the type of fighter to fight Johnson where he ought to be fought - in the body. The Boston man is strong, quick, immensely clever and a terrific hitter, and has improved a whole lot since he fought Johnson 15 rounds in Chelsea a few years ago. To my mind, Johnson has not added anything since except, perhaps confidence."

* The Illustrated Record - Sept. 17, 1910
Sam Langford Whips Joe Jeannette
Sam Langford defeated Joe Jeannette, the negro heavyweight, in their fifteen round bout at the Armory Athletic Association before a big crowd. The "Tar Baby", although conceding weight, height and reach to his opponent, carried the fighting to his man from the start and gave him a severe punishment about the body. Referee Charley White gave the decision to Langford.

Another article from the same issue titled 'Langford the Man to Fight Johnson Say's White.'
"In my opinion Langford is the man to fight Johnson. They would put up a sensational battle, more so than the recent affair at Reno. Langford is a terrific hitter and knows how to reach a man from almost any angle, so that I believe even Johnson might find it difficult to avoid his heavy artillery. Jeannette, too, would be a suitable opponent for Johnson, as he is game and has improved a lot in the last year."

So, as far as I'm concerned his legacy is tarnished for failing to fight either of these men, but especially Langford, after becoming the champion.

But, this can be endlessly debated and we'll never reach a resolution thanks to the fact that he never fought either of these men again regardless of how many opinions along the lines of the above were expressed over the next few years following his victory over Jeffries.

 

Jack Johnson, weighing a full 185, beating Langford, a welterweight, does not overly impress me.

 

Langford in the fight with Jack Johnson was near the upper limit of middle weight.

 

:d

 

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:d

 

More like a middle weight not a welterweight. The funny thing is people always point to Sam gaining more weight as if Johnson hadn't done so himself. They act like Sam now would be the bigger stronger guy with the added weight. he would be and would still be manhandled. Burns and jeffires were both stronger than Sam and they were handled with ease. I mean honestly people make way to much about sam putting on extra weight. Did it help his power some.. sure... did he suffer in other areas because of it as well.. no doubt. For God's sake just look at him.. he looks like a tubby rolly polly at the high end of his weight. You can't tell me that was his best fighting weight. I put his best weight at about 170 at most. That means he woudl still be physically dominated by Johnson.

It's also amusing how people can give all the credit in the world to say for being a p4p great who fought and beat people bigger than him. Yet in the same breath take away some fo the credit from johnson for beating him while weighing more. How is that even possible. If the guy was just a great p4p fighter and could take on guys bigger than him and win.. well then.. just totally and completly whipped that same guy with ease. You can't have it both ways, andit was an impressive win for Johnson.