Larry Holmes as #1 Heavyweight of All-Time???

Very nice post.

 

Tyson actually did it so I would have to favour him. Chin is amongst the last attributes to fade.

 

I truly don't believe that defenses against the likes of Dokes, Page, Thomas, and Coetzee would have elevated his standing much. Holmes was a pure boxer first and foremost, so his natural orientation would have been to outscore his challengers (unlike Louis), leading his critics to deride him for failing to produce stoppages. Actually, I think it's amazing that he ended 15 of his 20 successful defenses within the distance. (Ali stopped 12 of his 19 challengers.)

He was criticized for not rematching Weaver, but the fact remains that he stopped Mike, and not controversially either. Williams was his last successful defense, so condemning him for failing to grant Carl a second shot is ignorant. Norton got crushed by Shavers, so Earnie got the rematch in a situation where the winner was guaranteed that second opportunity. (And critics would have said Kenny was old if he lost a rematch anyway.)

The only challenger who it can be argued deserved a rematch and didn't get it was a challenger who I believe lost the fight which qualified him for that opportunity in the first place. Renaldo Snipes outhustled Tim Witherspoon in that bout, but got screwed by a majority decision which went Spoon's way. (Incidently, Tim then sat on his ass, inactive for nearly a year, while Holmes defended against Cooney, Cobb and Rodriguez.)

At least Larry then defended his title against a new face rather than Snipes again. But a real strong argument can be made that Rennie should have been challenging Holmes a second time when he got stuck with Page on the undercard of Holmes/Spoon. Why hasn't anybody complained about Berbick not getting a second shot at Larry after retiring Ali and knocking off Page? And didn't Evangelista deserve another shot after upsetting Snipes? "Holmes didn't give rematches," applies to one undeserving challenger out of 20 (a challenger who only became "deserving" in retrospect, by redeeming himself for his poor showing against Mr. Snipes).

"He didn't defend against the best of his time." Berbick crushed Tate before his shot, and Tyson later became a champion at his expense. Leon Spinks legitimately earned his shot at Holmes by stopping Mercado in a WBC eliminator, and many expected Leon to regain the title. Coetzee may have been robbed against Snipes, but since Renaldo got the decision, he got the shot, just as Spoon later did. Everybody wanted to see Holmes-Cooney, and Gerry did have the scalps of Young, Lyle and Norton on his belt.

Ocasio was undefeated, and decisioned Young twice. He was as well prepared for dealing with a great jab as any heavyweight contender of the time possibly could have been. (Jaws later clearly beat Dokes in PR, but got screwed with a draw.) His was a world championship, and EBU titlists Evangelista, Zanon and Rodriguez were all on a roll at the time of their shots, even if overmatched. Leroy Jones was very fat, and not a heavy hitter, but he did succeed Foreman as NABF champion at Weaver's expense, and was undefeated. (He also handed Denis his second defeat.) LeDoux was something of a charity case (for the benefit of his dying wife), but Scott was also a popular television fixture who upended a fine undefeated prospect in Marty Monroe to get his shot.

Scott Frank was undefeated, and a smart go-getter with chutzpa, where Page and Thomas were stupid. All Scott did was pick up the goddamned telephone to call Larry up to ask for a shot. Good for him.

Bonecrusher Smith was a big, powerful, intelligent and mature, well conditioned 31 year old contender who got his shot by crushing Bruno in the tenth and final round in Frank's hometown. Ask Bruno, Witherspoon or Weaver how dangerous he was. Carl Williams was still "The Truth," an undefeated, tall, fast and skilled contender who some were hyping as the second coming of Ali. He'd come off the deck early twice to dominate Tillis, and was yet to be exposed by Weaver and Tyson.

That Rodriguez and Witherspoon were only scheduled for 12 rounds disturbed me greatly, and I could not have stomached the idea of Holmes losing the title in a decision scheduled for less than the championship distance. (And for all we know, that additional three rounds may have resulted in a title change for Spoon, or a more decisive outcome in favor of Holmes. I never hear any bitching about that.)

For whatever it's worth, Larry himself has indicated that he believed Dokes was the best heavyweight he did not meet in the ring during his reign. (Like Frazier and Norton, they were friends, and there was never any question of the two of them squaring off.)

 

I believe Holmes to be the #1 heavyweight of all time based on ability. I rate boxers based only on how they box. I don't really consider the level of competition or historical impact when arriving at such conclusions, as the boxers don't have control over who boxes in their weightclass or what policies their goverment has in place during their era. And to answer the next reply before it's posted....I think that it's proposterous to suggest that Holmes avoided Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, or a rematch with Tim Witherspoon for fear of losing. Those aren't names that send potential opponents running for the hills....Holmes, like most boxers, was scared of no one....and if he fought them and won(which he likely would have), people would point out those names as examples of how weak the Holmes era was. Finnaly, it's only fair to add that Holmes' efforts against Michael Spinks were inexuseable....he should/could have dispatched of Spinks in seven or eight rounds the first time they met.

 

Holmes actually stopped Ali, and Marciano took out Louis, but using those outcomes to form conclusions about prime for prime matchups is like judging Napoleon by Waterloo. And conditioning can be a major factor in punch resistance.

I agree that Tyson could have put a peak Larry on the deck. He had the necessary speed and right handed power to cause this to happen. But in competition ready form (which he obviously was not with Mike), his powers of recovery would have been too rapid to allow Tyson to follow up his advantage. (Yes, Mike did it when they met, but he still had some difficulty getting in the finisher, chasing Holmes all over the ring for 45 seconds between the second and third knockdowns. Larry was five seconds and a right arm caught in the ropes away from surviving the round.)

 

Well said.

 

:good:good