Larry Holmes at 16-0 in Manila October 1975

Perry, I respect your opinion(s) but do you REALLY think Manila Ali beats ANY version of Holmes? Really?

I don't see Ali Manila beating a focussed LH of 1978-82.

 

I don't see undercard Holmes beating main event Manilla Ali personally.

Larry looked great against a bog ordinary opponent but watching it back to back with Ali-Frazier (as I did today) it's clear to me that Ali was at that point a class above, and the fired up Frazier from that night likely was too.

Holmes was definitely already a very good fighter but he matured and became an absolute great. Matter of fact his career development was nigh on perfect actually even though he came up the hard way. He met a steadily improving cast of fighters as he progressed and perfected his craft and by the time he was 28-29 and peaking he was the best fighter in the division by a street and his performances and results bare this out.

 

Very insightful point! I think it forms a a good pair of book ends for Ali's career and to a lesser extent many other superstar athletes.

 

Yeah I agree with that.

The marked decline in Ali post Manilla was stark. That fight took an incredible amount out of Ali (understandably) and you factor that in with Ali not training like he once did (he was in appalling shape for Young) and all things add up to a fighter in relatively sharp decline.

A greenish Holmes likely beats Ali at any point after Manilla, it really was his last hurrah as an ATG fighter imo.

 

After Manila Ali went noticeably downhill. The Ali who fought Frazier was in incredible shape and was punching quick, accurate and with authority. That version of Ali beats any version of Holmes. I rate Holmes highly but he was never at Ali's level. Great jab yes but in terms of skills and ability he did everything else well but not outstanding. It's the Holmes jab that was all time. Everything else was......ok.

 

The original choice to be Holme's opponent that night was not Rodney Bobick, but Boone Kirkman, who declined the low $5,000 offer.

 

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Any version of 70s Ali gets his head boxed off by Holmes.

I don't understand the underestimation of Holmes on these boards. How was he merely "ok" outside of the jabbing department?

He had great stamina and workrate in comparison to 70s Ali who needed to clinch, hold and squirm around the ring to conserve energy, he had more power, was just as good in the clinch, had just as good of a chin, a better jab... He also had better fundamentals. Could throw most punches properly and with snap unlike Ali who was a 1-2 puncher for the most part, wasn't exposed to a left hook 100% of the time, didn't carry his right hand out of position so that he eats up jabs all the time (the reason why a merely good jabber in Norton beat him)...

The only thing Ali has over Holmes are footwork and reflexes. Both attributes which diminished post-exile. 70s Ali has nothing on Holmes. Nothing.

 

If we're talking the post exile Ali,providing he's in top shape,the 1972-74 incarnation edges out a prime Holmes.



The talented 16 - 0 version of Holmes that fought in Manilla could probably have beaten any contender apart from the elite of that time - Ali,Frazier,Foreman and Norton. Even a 1975 Jimmy Young may have beaten him.

 

Holmes had no hook and rarely threw it, he tended to loop his right hand rather than throw it straight from the shoulder. He could move laterally but nothing like Ali......awkward in comparison. Holmes had an all time jab YES but he also dropped that jab leaving himself open for a right counter one of Ali's best punches. Aside from that jab which was world class Holmes was in many ways a poor mans Ali (whom he tried to emulate).

 

He fought Rodney Bobick, yet I always wondered why Holmes never fought his brother Duane. Two rising prospects would be a natural match and it would have been a chance for Holmes to avenge that bad amateur loss.

The Manila Ali would have beaten Holmes and so would Frazier IMO. After that Ali was usually out of shape and visibly slipping so Holmes may well have picked him off.

 

I don't think they fought pre Bobick Norton because the risk outweighed the reward, post I don't think many people cared.

 

Watch Holmes vs Roy Williams fight & Holmes vs Ibar Arrington fight, you will see Holmes was a novice fighter. Lucky to s****e through those two fights and escape knock out losses. Howard Cosell labelled Holmes as "weak chinned". It turned out that Larry had a great chin.

 

in 1975 larry would have lost to ali .....