Larry Holmes calls Fury & aj amateurs

And I asked you to provide specific examples of these skills he could teach them. If you're not going to do it from that fight (presumably the Witherspoon that nearly took Holmes on points wasn't as good as he was later to become) then from any stage in his career.

No, let's continue to debate if you've got the stones for it. I fundamentally and vehemently disagree that Fury isn't on Holmes's level. In fact I've broken down why I think he'd beat him H2H. You've yet to do so.

Ditch the generalised comments and let's hear some more detailed breakdowns. I'm sure it's not beyond you.

They were both dominant world champions with nearly twenty defences a piece. I fail to see why comparing them is disrespectful to Holmes, or why merely questioning this reaction warrants such a display of snarky faux-superiority.

Your argument is increasingly running out of steam, it seems.

 

A big fan of Wlad's era were you? Can't say it was the most thrilling period in the division's history, personally.

 

No, but Wlad left no doubt, in his time, he was above the competition. not looking mediocre every other fight.

 

Holmes has a far better jab than Fury for starters in fact he probably has the best jab the heavyweight division has seen beside Ali. Holmes is very good all round with a good right cross as well, very well conditioned disciplined fighter with championship mentality Fought and beat all comers with a deep resume. I am sorry but neither Wlad or Fury at this stage compare. Fury still has work to do in cleaning out this era.

Now the skills Tim could teach this generation include defensively responsible skills such as being elusive and comfortable in traffic, such as riding and slipping punches. You seem to think this generation are more skillful than the 70s and 80s I disagree. Tim transitions between attack and Defence very well. His skills allowed him to neutralize Holmes jab . Excellent punch variety as well. This was on display in the Holmes fight and other fights.

If you want to use Wlad and Fury bring it on. Fury has good skills in this generation. Wlad for me has never been the most exciting though he became very effective under Manny Steward.

 

Na, you just don't know boxing. I mean actual boxing, the science and physical dynamics of it, not armchair boxing.

 

Yes, try out jabbing someone 6 inches taller than you who is a world class champion known for their outboxing skills.

In fact here's a challenge for you, find me a case where an outboxer outboxes a guy who is 6 inches taller than them when both guys are known for their outboxing skills.

The closest you'll get is SRL-Hearns and even then, SRL couldn't outbox him from the outside, he had to take it on the inside, and they were the same weight and only 4 inches difference between them. Fury-Holmes would have a 30-40lb and 6 inches difference between them. Boxing is about distance control, that becomes very difficult when someone is taller, longer, and faster than you.

 

Holmes was a cruiserweight, 6'3 210lbs with very noticeable fat. He would not do so well in today's era. He went life and death with 6' 205lb Earnie Shavers.

 

Not a big fan of Holmes then?

 

No you don’t know boxing that much is clear. You are just a Fury nut huggers.

 

First of all you show your ignorance again . Hearns outboxes SRL because as great a boxer as SRL is Hearns was the better boxer out of the both of them and could outbox SRL. Floyd much shorter could always outbox the much longer with longer reach Diego Corrales. The fact someone is much taller or shorter is no excuse. Certainly was not for Tyson against a whole generation of taller fighters. Did Valuev outbox Haye?

 

SRL was a far better boxer than Hearns. He had more skills, more fluid, more control of his punches. Hearns was tall and lanky, when you're trying to outbox someone who has a longer reach you are giving up a big disadvantage, as a huge part of boxing is distance control.

Now, what is the biggest advantage you can have with distance control? Range. As a boxer, your job is to control that range. Here is an education on the very basics of boxing range control and it starts off with footwork.

The first line of defense in boxing is Range. Be out of your opponents range. Now if you have an iron chin, or you are shorter, hit much harder, then you need to practice your defense outside of range control, such as bobbing and weaving, cutting off the ring, and take that range away. Chavez, Tyson does this. Fighters who use range, Khan, Mayweather, Malignagi, Judah, Fury, Ali, Byrd, Hearns, SRL. Which is why Malignagi and Judah was utterly destroyed by Khan, all 3 were range fighters but Khan had far more speed and range advantage.

So how do you control range? The most basic form is your opponent takes 1 step in, you take 1 step back. When you take 1 step in, they have to take 1 step back, but if you have faster feet and hands, you can get in and land before they can step back, in which case they will have to resort to their 2nd line of defense, parrying, blocking, slipping etc.

Now what if, you have so much reach advantage, that your opponent takes 1 step in and you are STILL out of range? Your opponent then only has 2 options; 1) jump in to quickly close that gap, 2) Cut you off into a corner so you simply can't keep taking a step back. There is also option 3) which is lateral movement but that doesn't completely nullify it if their footwork is equally as good.

So option 1) is what Pac does, he's much shorter so he jumps inside to close the gap and be in position to unleash his combo. Option 2 is what Tyson, Chavez, Castillo does. Option 3 is being so damm good laterally with amazing head movement that you can basically stay in range and still dodge punches, which is basically what Lomachenko does.

So what option did SRL take with Hearns? He was the better boxer but he couldn't outbox Hearns with that handicap of needing to take 2 steps forward in order to land as opposed to the normal 1 step he takes or even on the reverse side of that where he had the height advantage. He used the option 2) which is cut Hearns off and fight him on the inside. Luckily for him, they were the same size, he had enough chin and Hearns was fragile and SRL hit very hard for his weight class.

So what option could Holmes take? He isn't gonna turn into Pacquiao all of a sudden. If he closes the gap and fights on the inside (option 2) he will have 30-40lbs leaning on him and punching him and after Wilder fight, you should know Fury hits hard enough to hurt Holmes, and Holmes has never demonstrated Lomachenko inside slipping skills to show he could pull off option 3.

So he's left with trying to outbox a guy who has an extra step of range on him. He jabs, he can't reach Fury, Fury jabs, it reaches him, sure he can block or slip it, but even if he blocked and slipped 9/10, he's still getting hit once. Meanwhile, he's missing Fury 10/10 if he's out of range. IF he decides to step in range, Fury simply takes a step back, and as soon as he steps in range, he gives Fury a chance to pop him, then Fury steps out and he's out of range again. Holmes is basically being forced to be the bull when he isn't the bull in this fight. Fury meanwhile is both the matador and the bull.

If you ever actually boxed different styles in the ring, you would understand this. And if you trained different styles, you would understand this. Boxing mechanics exist, it's not simply about "resume". As they say, styles makes fights.

And your example of Floyd-Corrales further shows how much knowldedge you lack in understanding boxing mechanics. Corrales doesn't fight like an "outboxer", he doesn't use range to his advantage, did you not see the Castillo fight? He doesn't try to "float like a butterfly", backpedalling, and using his range to his advantage. Moreover, Floyd actually has a longer reach than Corrales in the first place so that point is completely moot.

As for Fury nuthugging. I'm not even a fan, he's fckin boring to watch. I was hoping Wilder beats him, much more exciting fighter and as annoying as he is, he actually has a funny persona. I'm hoping that Joshua beats him.

 

First of all please educate yourself. I don’t need a boxing education from you. It’s your opinion that Fury is a better boxer than Larry Holmes and it certainly is not mine.

Hearns was a master boxer. Because of the hit man persona people always just think of him as a destructive force. If you go back to his amateur days you will see he was a very well schooled boxer with great fundamentals. As great a boxer as Leonard he was never a better boxer than Hearns which is why he had to become Joe Frazier against Hearns.Hearns is so great a boxer that when he fought guys taller than him him who were master boxers like the outstanding long term light heavyweight champion Virgil Hill, Hearns outboxed. Leonard could not outbox Benitez who was even more skilled so he had to rough him up and display more heart and they were the same size.

Thanks for the instructions about range, timing and distance control but you best direct that to those you train rather than persons who understand boxing fundamentals.

Just because Fury beat the crap out of Wilder something I predicted because Wilder has a serious lack of boxing fundamentals amongst other things like a fragile psyche does not mean you compare Holmes to Wilder. Holmes is like 100% more equipped than Wilder to deal with Fury with significant advantages in speed of hand and foot, power and all round skills. Leaning on someone is not superior in fighting skills just because the other guy has no inside game. Holmes has all the shot from the jab to hook to right cross and uppercut, combinations etc. I personally don’t think Fury is boring to watch but then again I can be partial to a good boxer.


Now we do have a point of agreement in this debate. I do like both AJ and Fury and I actually believe AJ will stop Fury in a great contest. Styles make fights.

Seriously I enjoy debating you because unlike some posters I can see where you are coming from even when I don’t agree with you.

What I cannot understand though going in a lot of people were like you felt Wilder would beat Fury. Put persona aside that is all entertaining but Wilder is a terrible boxer blesses with power in his right hand. I think he was a mistake ready made to be taken advantage of. Certainly don’t even think Wilder would have been a top contender in the 80s.

 

Not a big fan of your weak retorts.

 

Would out point fury .I dred to think what he would do to AJ .wouldn't be pretty.