Larry Holmes...did he miss out on Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas?

Larry Holmes was offered $3.1 million to fight Marvis Frazier, and he was told by Don King he was going to get $2.5 million to fight Greg Page.

He took the $3 million, left Don King and fought Frazier.

Then he was given the last chance of fighting Greg Page for $2.5 million, and he was offered $8 million to fight Coetzee (who would get $4 million) at Caesar's Palace. Both Holmes and Coetzee accepted. Then the fight was pushed back a number of times because the financing fell through.

By the time the fight was finally canceled, Greg Page had lost back to back fights to both Tim Witherspoon and David Bey.

Again, I don't know why there's still all this 'glow' for Greg Page. He was as hot and cold as they come, and he wasn't a big seller. Holmes made more fighting freaking Marvis Frazier than he would've Page.

And when Page and Witherspoon fought for the vacant belt, Page the top contender got $400,000 and Witherspoon $250,000. So they weren't exactly generating big dollars on their own.



New York Times
SPORTS OF THE TIMES
By Dave Anderson
Published: March 29, 1984
They had arrived without a nod at each other, without even a glance. After the bacon and eggs in the Grand Hyatt ballroom yesterday, they were sitting up on the dais, each on one side of the lectern and about 10 feet apart. But each was studiously avoiding the other. Larry Holmes, in a gray double-breasted suit, wearing a red tie, and with a thick diamond bracelet glittering on his right wrist, leafed through a boxing magazine. Gerrie Coetzee, wearing a soft-brown suit and a brown tie, chatted with his adviser, Cedric Kushner, and his trainer, Jackie McCoy.

Strangely, the two heavyweight boxers had never been introduced. Whenever the opportunity occurred in the three years Gerrie Coetzee has fought here, Larry Holmes had always snubbed him.

''Holmes had this thing about me being a racist, being from South Africa, being white; that's what I heard,'' Gerrie Coetzee would explain later. ''But time changes everything.''

So does money. Larry Holmes is understood to be guaranteed about $8 million, with Gerrie Coetzee receiving $4 million, for their June 8 title fight in Las Vegas, Nev., with or without a World Boxing Association sanction. And now Gerrie Coetzee got up to speak.

''I've never met Larry Holmes,'' he said, ''but I'd like to meet him in the ring on June 8 and show him what I think of him.''

In his thick accent, the 28-year-old W.B.A. champion began teasing Larry Holmes, now the champion of the new International Boxing Federation, about having defended the World Boxing Council title against Alfredo Evangelista, Lucien Rodriguez and Scott Frank - three unimposing challengers. With a smile, Larry Holmes jumped up and shook hands with his next opponent.

''Get it now, this is it,'' Larry Holmes suggested to photographers. ''Keep on talking, I like that.''

''Well, Larry,'' responded Gerrie Coetzee, flashing a sly smile, ''that's all you're gonna like.''

The box-office buildup, the only sanction that any fight needs, had begun. Neither Larry Holmes nor Gerrie Coetzee is concerned that the W.B.A., which is meeting tomorrow in Las Vegas, may withhold recognition and strip the South African of his title. Both know that their bout will be sanctioned by the public at the box offices of the 25,000-seat arena at Caesars Palace and at closed-circuit locations. Any other sanction, even by the new I.B.F., is so much alphabet soup.

''In a year or two down the line,'' Larry Holmes said, ''the W.B.C. and the W.B.A. won't exist.''

Three months ago, Larry Holmes abdicated as the W.B.C. champion. That organization had threatened to strip him of the title because he wouldn't defend it against Greg Page, who was recently outpointed by Tim Witherspoon to determine the new W.B.C. champion. But even as the W.B.A. titleholder, Gerrie Coetzee, like the boxing public, recognizes Larry Holmes, undefeated in 45 bouts, with 32 knockouts, as the only true world heavyweight champion.

''Larry Holmes is the real champion,'' the South African was saying now after all the speeches. ''The only way to get recognition is by beating Larry Holmes.''

Gerrie Coetzee has a 29-3-1 record, with 18 knockouts, including a 10th- round knockout of Michael Dokes 6 months ago for the W.B.A. title. His 3 losses were a 15-round decision to John Tate for the W.B.A. title in 1979, a 13th-round knockout by Mike Weaver (then the W.B.A. champion) in 1980, and a 10-round decision to Renaldo Snipes in 1981. His draw was with Pinklon Thomas early last year.

Gerrie Coetzee is not a clever boxer. But he can punch, especially with his ''bionic'' right hand, whose metacarpal bones were fused together in a 1978 operation. Until then, he had fractured his hand nine times and needed more than a dozen operations.

''I've seen Holmes knocked down by Renaldo Snipes and Mike Weaver,'' the South African said. ''I fought both of those guys. If they can put him down, so can I. I'm going to hit him sometime in the 15 rounds. He's good. He's got a good jab to set up a quick overhand right. But I'll work on that, I'll be prepared for that. I'm good at reading my opponents in the first few rounds.''

Larry Holmes predicted a ninth-round knockout, but he sounded more involved in an eventual court fight over money he contends he never received from Don King, his former promoter, than with his June 8 fight.

''This is a different kind of press conference, no fuzzy hair,'' Larry Holmes said, referring to Don King's electrified coiffure. ''No Don King here, no Bob Arum here. Arum says fighters don't deserve all the money, but the promoters don't deserve all the money they get. Nobody would pay to see Don King fight, unless he fought Arum. Or unless he set his hair on fire.''

Larry Holmes broke with Don King in a squabble over the champion's share of the purses from several of his title fights.

''Don King was one of the people telling me not to shake hands with Coetzee all those years, because of how black people were treated in South Africa,'' Larry Holmes said, ''and now Don's signed up Coetzee to a promotional contract.''

''Don King is talking about stopping the fight unless he's paid his $750,000 advance and a letter of credit for the rest of his money,'' says Kenny Bounds of JPD Sports, a Dallas-based television network that is co-promoting the bout with Murad Muhammad and the Caesars World organization. ''But he has nowhere to go legally, although he could hinder our closed-circuit plans.''

Kenny Bounds is boxing's newest promoter, its new act.

''Being new in the business, yes, I think I can make a profit,'' said this blond former Georgia Tech football player, who resembles Tommy Nobis, the onetime Atlanta Falcon linebacker. ''But check with me after the fight.''

Check with all those alphabet-soup boxing organizations, too. The more there are, the less the public cares which one is which. But after the June 8 fight, the public will know who the world heavyweight champion is, with or without initials.

photo of Gerrie Coetzee and Larry Holmes

 

This is the problem with the situation rather than with Holmes. The other guy was losing to the kind of guy Larry had beat. Berbick beat Thomas and Page in that time. Larry had already beat Berbick. Witherspoon beat Page. Larry had already beat Witherspoon. Witherspoon beat Tubbs. Larry had still already beat Witherspoon.

Smith beat Bruno who had cracked the ratings. It’s not that Smith was rated that high it’s that the top half of the ratings was guys Larry already beat or were guys set to meet the other guy. Who else was he going to fight?

If Smith was not a good challenger how come Tubbs got to challenge Page out of beating Smith?

Thomas got a crack at Witherspoon from a draw with Coetzee. Everyone had beat Coetzee (Snipes, Tate, Weaver) Page got a crack at Coetzee from a loss (yes he lost) to David Bey.

So in answer to the “which challenger was the most worthy of a shot at the undisputed title” during the years between Larry fighting Cooney and Spinks including all of the men who fought for titles? take your pick.

It’s probably Thomas or Bey.

It sure was not Coetzee, Page, Dokes, Tubbs.

 

First of all, Dokes never fought any of those guys either. So he never engaged in a series against them.

Second, if Marvis Frazier had been promoted by Don King, he'd have been in that group, too, and he'd have held a portion of the heavyweight title, too.

Marvis beat Tubbs and Witherspoon in the amateurs. He was considered a brighter prospect when they all turned pro.

Frazier was 50-1 as an amateur, the lone loss coming against Tubbs, who he beat in a return bout, when he lost his final amateur bout to James Broad. (Who Frazier beat as a pro in 1983.)

The only guys Frazier faced as an amateur or pro who he never scored a win over were Holmes and Tyson. That's it.

 

That wasn't the question, though, so stop pretending it was. The question was "which challenger did he take on that at the time (not in hindsight) truly deserved a shot at the lineal champion?". Don't see how you could miss that.

It boils down to the simple fact that Larry for 3+ years managed to fight only one worthy challenger (at the time, not in hindsight), more or less. You try getting around this simple fact. Stop doing that.

 

Like everyone else I would have liked to have seen a rematch with Witherspoon and a fight with Thomas. The Coetzee fight too. They are better fights than Cobb, Frank, Rodriguez and on paper Williams. Absolutely.

Without belts though, and without hindsight, how much more intresting would those guys have been than Frazier, Smith and Bey?

Without the glamour of a paper title Thomas is just a guy who drew with Coetzee who beat a challenger easier than Larry did. Coetzee without a belt is the guy who lost to a few guys Larry already beat. Witherspoon becomes just a rematch like Joe Louis vs Arturo Godoy.

And that’s not using hindsight. That’s just looking at them without a paper title at that time.

 

And it's not like that Larry lacked worth challengers.

Page, when Holmes' WBA mandatory, was certainly more worthy than most of Larry's challengers post Cooney.

Witherspoon was very much deserving of a second shot after their very close first encounter and after beating Page.

Thomas would have been a good match-up after beating Witherspoon.

Tubbs certainly was a better match-up than most of the guys Holmes faced post Cooney. That Thomas and Tubbs lost after Holmes had lost his title don't change the fact that they were very viable opponents when he still was champ.

 

You still avoid the question. Please answer it. How many deserving challengers did Larry face in the 3+ years after Cooney?

 

If you acknowledge Holmes was the champ, who were the fighters actually winning bouts in those years who Holmes should've fought instead?

In 1983, Marvis Frazier beat the undefeated Olympian James Broad and he beat the veteran Joe Bugner.

In 1983, Tony Tubbs beat journeyman Larry Givens, Jimmy Young and Gordie Racette.

In 1983, Greg Page beat Larry Frazier, Renaldo Snipes and journeyman Rick Keller.

In 1983, Pinklon Thomas drew with Coetzee and beat cruiserweights Alfonso Ratliff and Michael Greer.

None of those wins was demonstrably better than the others.

And out of that group, in late 1983, Holmes got offered fights with Frazier and Page. The Frazier fight paid the most. So he took that one.

Who should he have fought instead of Marvis?

Had Pinklon Thomas beat the undefeated Olympian James Broad and then beat the veteran Joe Bugner, like Marvis did, and Holmes agreed to give him a title shot ... those wins over Broad and Bugner might look more impressive than the guys Pinklon actually beat that year (Alfonso Ratliff and Michael Greer).

But since Holmes blew out Marvis, people look back and say WHAT A TERRIBLE opponent. Holmes should've fought "that other guy."

But the "other guys" weren't doing any more than Marvis had that year.

Hell, Scott Frank got a title shot against Holmes basically because he drew with Renaldo Snipes in 1982, and Frank is arguably the WORST guy Holmes ever fought in a title defense. Frank had no business in there.

That said, how the hell does Greg Page edging Snipes in 1983 make him freaking "superman?"

Had Greg Page beaten the guys Marvis did that year - the undefeated Broad and Joe Bugner - and Marvis fought Rick Keller and Snipes, is Marvis suddenly the BEST CHALLENGER OUT THERE?

Please.

If you just look at their fights, and not the "belts," Holmes was UP HERE ... and all the others were in a mix together ... and none of them were significantly better than the others.

None of the challengers out there were putting together any winning streaks to speak of.

People just say "Holmes should've fought that guy because he had a strap or he was rated" regardless of whether they were better than the guys he was actually beating.

 

About 2. Smith and Bey. And if he only fought them and missed out the others It’s actually equal to other longish term champions like jess Willard, Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey who had spells of inactivity.

My argument is where was the outstanding contender for him to fight?

They say champions make the belt and not the other way around. Without hindsight it was the other way around looking at Witherspoon, Tubbs, Page, Coetzee, Dokes and Tate. The belt made those guys. They were often just contenders who could not beat live opponents.

 

Great point!

 

Yes! And they are rightly criticized for that inactivity. So that basically wraps up the discussion.

But how often is there an outstanding contender?

Perhaps Langford during Johnson's reign and Wills during Dempsey's, but otherwise they're rare. If Ali and Louis had sat around waiting "for an outstanding contender" they had hardly made a defense. But they didn't sit around, but instead defended against the challengers that were out there, even though those challengers had lost to other contenders. Well, Ali kind of stopped taking on the best after the Norton rubber, but he is also rightly criticized for it.

 

It doesn't really wrap up the discussion because you never said who all the "deserving" challengers were post-Cooney that Holmes should've faced.

I think he should've fought Dokes instead of Cobb. But Cobb was highly ranked by the WBC after beating Mercado on the undercard of Holmes-Snipes. And Dokes was going after Weaver. But, if I had my choice, I'd have rather seen Holmes fight Dokes instead of Cobb.

Holmes fought Witherspoon and Frazier in 1983. Both were promising young fighters. Frazier was the bigger name at the time. Holmes had no business fighting Scott Frank. But the other two were both undefeated rising contenders.

Should Holmes have wedged Page in there, too, and fought all three that year? That would've been totally fine, but I'm not going to crucify him for it. It's not like Page was significantly better than either Spoon or Frazier.

In 1984, Holmes spent most of the year trying to get the Coetzee fight finalized. Despite several signings, it collapsed because the financiers never came up with the scheduled payments in time. There had also been talks of him fighting Frank Bruno ... another rising contender ... but Bruno got wasted by Bonecrusher and Holmes fought Bonecrusher instead.

Who should he have fought in 1984 instead of Coetzee (which never came off) and Bonecrusher? Page? He lost twice that year, to Spoon and Bey, then ironically beat Coetzee to close out the year.

Tony Tubbs only fought once in 1984, against Tom Trimm. Does beating Trimm deserve a title shot more than beating Bruno?

Also in 1984, Pinklon Thomas finally scored his first substantial win in two years (since he beat Tillis) over Tim Witherspoon, by a close margin. But he didn't fight again for nearly a year.

I just don't think there were ALL THESE AMAZING opponents Holmes was skipping over. Thomas stands out because he had a belt. But he didn't have some string of amazing wins to his credit or anything.

Michael Dokes stands out for me. I think Holmes should've fought Dokes in 1982 after Cooney. And Thomas would've been nice instead of someone like Carl Williams in 1985. (Although David Bey and Michael Spinks were certainly deserving.)

But, other than Dokes and Thomas, Holmes did fine.

If Holmes was as bad as the rest of the division around him, guys who all seemed to win and then lose to anyone else who had or once had a paper belt, Holmes would've lost to Weaver and Berbick and Leon and Witherspoon and Bonecrusher, etc.

But he wasn't.

 

Larry did the same thing though. He kept busy too. Most years he fought three times.

 

There are some good posts on this thread talking about this...here’s a Sports Illustrated article from 85’ I figure I’ll just add on.

https://www.si.com/vault/1985/07/01...oxing-become-the-muddle-it-is-time-for-a-quiz

 

Good post. Even more contemporary confirmation that the belt made those guys look more than the contender/prospect they were.

In truth, by 1982, Larry had dealt with the top half of the top ten, some of the guys he beat were still around & passing the other belt around or losing to untested guys with no more credentials than Marvis Frazier.

Nobody was outstanding.