Larry Holmes...did he miss out on Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas?

Yes, but against the best available. Holmes didn't.

 

According to The Ring rankings, Holmes only beat one top 5 ranked Contender after Cooney: Bey.

He didn't beat a single one out of nr. 1 and nr. 2 ranked contender by The Ring. This is over three years we're talking about.

So he didn't face the ones the alphabet organizations had as the best, nor the ones The Ring had as the best. So should we just all say he didn't face the best?

 

We can say Larry didn’t fight the best if you can explain who was the best. A guy with a belt who won a belt from a guy with a belt who won a belt from a guy with a ring Magazine rating of #7 cannot be the best either.

Was Tubbs any better than Bey or Williams when it came down to it? All these novices Larry defended against could beat belt guys too. Witherspoon, Snipes, Berbick, Williams, Marvis, Smith. Even Scott Frank drew with Snipes who beat Berbick who beat Page, Tate and Thomas!

I agree that Larry did fight soft touches like Rodriguez to stay busy. Joe Louis fought Jack Roper though.

But by and large, I think this thread demonstrates there was nothing about the ones Larry did not face that puts them on a higher echelon than the ones he did. They just had a belt.

 

To be honest i am halfway across the world posting at weird hours and mainly agreeing with the second half trajectory.

I have no real problem with this time period. It was a weak era and Norton got hammered by Shavers otherwise a Norton rematchor lack of it would have been interesting.

Per above.

I have no problem with this fight either.

Well you haven't got a clue about Page and the 83 circumstances either then. Page was lauded in some quarters for having been the best performed heavyweight on the triple crown affair and was considered to be the big danger to Holmes, particularly after he was shown to be aging vs the green Witherspoon who he was heavily favored to beat.

The Page - Snipes fight was an eliminator for the next sot at Holmes. Holmes actually agreed to terms and signed to fight Page before reneging.

It's highly amusing that he told all and sundry in his own words that he would be taking the easy road home from there on in and then proved it via his actions yet there are still people that try to tell otherwise. He said it himself for gods sake.

Irrelevant. Page won vs Snipes to get a guaranteed shot which Holmes then backed out of after coming to terms. Page had come back after the Berbick loss with wins over Tillis and Snipes to be considered the big danger again. Bey was after Holmes had dropped his belt in order not to fight Page.

One can pick apart the records big time of the guys Holmes was mostly fighting. He was fighting lackeys comparative to what Page would have been after beating Tillis and Snipes b2b.

You can put whatever political twist or moral you like on it but this is what happened.

Page was still considered by many to be the heir apparent.

Tubbs tbh isn't on my list.

Per above. I personally don't see the need for Tubbs above some others.

Please. You will notice the only rematch Holmes clamored for despite plenty of tough fights was Cooney when Cooney had long been in hiding and looked like he may never fight again.

There were comments showing a reluctance to fight Norton again shortly after their grueling bout.

Weaver was shelved after their struggle tho i can look past that as he won the WBA title which brought in some extra political difficulty.

Witherspoon was shelved completely after his epic with Holmes. Instead Holmes starts talks about a Cooney who hadn't even been fighting and didn't come near as close as Witherspoon to beating him.

Then we had the straight out comments that he would never fight Thomas because he was a junkie etc etc, particularly after the pubic started to clamor for the match. One article at the time called Thomas "The peoples champion".

He stated he would never fight "that goddam South African" too but when the big money came out he changed tune.

There was plenty of window to fight Thomas. The public became interested but Holmes emphatically stated he would not fight him before banging on about drugs and crap.

Dokes? Do you not realize Kings son had Dokes and the plan was for Dokes to be one part of the title picture post Holmes? They were never going to be matched, i can't fault Holmes for that. What good would it be for the Kings to have a beaten Dokes and retiring Holmes? LOL

Well yes.

Well no. He should have fought Page and Thomas and a bout with someone like Weaver or Witherspoon at some point post Witherspoon. If he turned back Page in 83, fought Thomas when he was hot and put one more name in there his last half would be hard to fault. These three extra fights (providing he won!!!!) would have made him almost impossible t dislodge from #3 at worst.

Loads of filler in there. Revisionist history now has some people thinking he took on a red hot dangerous Witherspoon when Tim was about a 7-1 underdog and not thought of highly GOING INTO THE FIGHT. How the fight panned out does not alter the fact that it was another expected easy opponent. Same with Spinks, he was 7-1 odd.

The fact is Larry took the easy way out almost all the way post Cooney. I have no problem with Cobb, he was top 10 and hanging about and Bey after he beat Page was ok but it's a sorry bunch overall.

 

This is the only words of yours i have read in this thread as you quoted me.

You are a complete non entity on this topic and have absolutely no idea. I have seen your form before on this topic as well as 95% of others and won't be wasting any time on you.

 

You've got problems when you have to try and big up Marvis Bloody Frazier!!!! Really?

The guy had 10 pro fights for heavens sakes. Holmes was a 4-1 fave even tho people thought he was slipping fast.

P.S. After the triple crown affair the expected Holmes - Page opened at 8-5 or 9-5 for Holmes. See if you can find similar short odds for post 83 defenses and then we will see who was ans wasn't thought to have a chance at that time.

 

Here's some of an old post of mine i found with some of the many Holmes comments from around the time. As i said back then it's little wonder Holmes opponents got so riled up against him particularly when he often played victim to the racism card. It's all there and he said similar prior to eve this -

48 hours pre fight vs David Bey -

Larry - "You don't stand a chance.

This content is protected

." (Bey's mother is Irish caucasion and his father is of Lebanese descent and once served as Joe Louis' sparring partner in the Army!)

Post Fight

Larry - "I might fight Spinks, but only for money, not ego (look at the seeds of taking Spinks for granted) Or (laughing) the winner of Hagler - Hearns, but definitely no more big guys. I'm tired of guys like David Bey hitting me up the side of the head. That means no Pinklon Thomas, no Greg Page, no Tim Witherspoon."

Interesting bits, Holmes was already taking Spinks lightly and expected to walk thru him, Page, Witherspoon and Thomas were no chance whatsoever of getting a shot at this time no matter what they did, this is obvious. We also see the burning fire inside Larry per the Bey comments. You'd be lucky to get away with those nowadays lol

 

So there is 3 guys Holmes obviously thinks he was missing out on himself.

 

We're just going around and around, because I've already answered this.

Page, Dokes, Thomas, Coetzee, and Tubbs were certainly better than Frazier, Frank, Cobb and Rodriguez. Neither of the latter four were even ranked by The Ring during these years, where as the first five was frequently ranked among the top.

Witherspoon and Williams would in hindsight turn out to be better challengers than they were seen as at the time, but then Holmes also didn't rematch any of them despite close fights.

Bey was probably a reasonably deserving challenger at the time he received his shot, because of his win over Page. Thomas was probably even better after beating Witherspoon, who had also beaten Page and given Holmes a tough fight, but Bey was alright.

Then we have Smith that came off a victory over Bruno. But Witherspoon was more deserving at the time, after beating Page and having run Holmes very close previously. Coetzee, courtesy of his win over Dokes, was probably also more deserving.

So you have one challenger that deserved a shot, but probably no the most deserving out there, and another who wasn't really that deserving, but not completely out of the reckoning either. That's not impressive over a period of over 3 years.

 

This should settle it. Because this is just what jumps out at most of us as obvious when looking at Larry's choices over those years.

 

I would have liked to have seen Larry in all the fights you wanted to see. I just don’t inflate the prowess of the guys he did not fight above most of the ones he did based on Larrys problems with “Foot-in-mouth syndrome”. If that makes me have “absolutely no idea” for agreeing with you on wanting to see the same fights perhaps you can explain why it was that Page blew one chance to face Larry when he lost against Berbick on the Cooney card?

Can it be that it is you who has “absolutely no idea” in comprehending that Page just kept on proving he could lose to guys Larry beat? And even that doesn’t stop me still wanting to have seen Larry fight Page or Thomas, simply it is merely acknowledging an understanding that the guys had no more appeal as challengers to Larry before they won belts than guys he defended against.

 

yes when you say it like that it seems clear. But nothing was clear was it? Coetzee lost his belt to a guy who lost his last fight. What guy who lost his last fight was ever going to beat Larry back then? Thomas got a shot at the WBC off the back of a draw. Page had a high rating with the WBC because he outpointed a guy Larry already kayoed (Snipes). Ring Magazine gave the rival champs a high rating only because they wanted unifications. The governing bodies clearly did not want unifications though.

When the WBA invented Tate as a candidate for a vacant title he was no higher than #7 with ring Magazine. When Weaver beat Tate where did he rank with ring Magazine? This was the level of any rival championship to Holmes before and after he beat Muhammad Ali and Leon Spinks the last two undisputed champions. Cast offs that Larry beat could win those belts without being better or worse than Renaldo Snipes or Carl Williams.

he was not better before beating Witherspoon was he? Thomas was not better after beating him either. Yes I wanted to see that fight, but if there had of been an undisputed title Thomas might have had to beat both Berbick and Witherspoon to get his title fight. Thomas went 1-1 against them. before fighting those two Thomas was just a guy who could not beat Coetzee who Snipes and Weaver beat.

there’s the rub though Witherspoon having a belt also meant he had mandatory commitments. That same year Larry was pursuing that unification with Coetzee.

And Larry signed to meet him. Coetzee even acknowledging Larry was the real champion. The WBA threatened to strip Coetzee when time ran out.

A lot of challengers deserved a shot yes. And they had a lot of champions to choose from. Governing bodies that did not want unifications.

 

Larry said stupid things all the time. This is the kind of thing that did not help his cause. Weighing up the risk reward, political nightmare and complications he went through trying to unify with Coetzee he felt it justified to say that. But Larry just went on putting his foot in his mouth.

In reality had he been an undisputed champion Larry would have to fight those fights and they would have been easier to make.

 

There will always be politics and you can't face everyone. But more than three years and meeting only one fighter rankad top 5 by The Ring? Can you find something like that for any lineal champ that doesn't get critiszed for it?

It is a strange state of affairs, and JT has just quoted Holmes giving his reasons for it. So why are we still discussing this?

 

And the simple fact remains---all those potential matches with the premier guys was not a case of going through minefields. They were all beatable.

So sign the contracts and fight them. Contracts did somehow managed to get made with the Scott Franks of the boxing world.

And his pre-Cooney title run was hardly littered with the best available either. And go look up how many #1 ranked heavies he fought during that 7 year run.