Larry Holmes...did he miss out on Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas?

Exactly. I have other interviews too that i have quoted over the years. The posts might be too old too find now.

It's just the facts, he backed up his words with action, or in this case non action. Obviously you can't face top opponents every time out of the gate but 3 years for that lot is beyond defensible. One just has to make up their own minds how it affects his end ranking. Obviously if someone is facing the best right to the end of which a Hagler would be an obvious example then you have to take it into account. I don't think a Louis or Marciano would have missed much. Of course you can factor in the perceived strength of the era if needed too.

For me Holmes basically took no risks post Cobb, you could argue post Witherspoon if you believed this scare was the pivotal point. Irregardless it was a sorry bunch overall at that time.

He still usually makes my top 5 and has been as high/low as #3.

 

This was the problem,

Ring Ratings.
Larry Holmes, Champion

1. Michael Dokes
2. Mike Weaver
3. Gerrie Coetzee
4. Renaldo Snipes
5. Trevor Berbick
6. Greg Page
7. Gerry Cooney
8. Pinklon Thomas
9. Randall (Tex) Cobb
10. Tim Witherspoon

Look at that top ten. Start of 1983 who is Larry going to fight? He’s already beat #2, he’s beat #4, he’s beat #5, he’s beat #7, he’s beat #9 and he’s beat #10 too. The #1 and #3 are going to figh each other. That only leaves #6 and #8 that he could fight. In fact #10 Witherspoon beat #4 Snipes before Larry could fight him. So technically 1983 was not such a bad year for Larry. Tim was Ring Magazine #4 by the time they met. There was nobody higher ranked available.

 

Another loop back to the same place.

He could have faced his mandatory Page for starters, and thereby not having to drop his WBA belt. Page was ranked nr 2 by The Ring at the end of 1983, going into 1984, when the fight would have taken place.

And then you had guys like Coetzee, Dokes, Thomas and Tubbs not to mention a rematch with Witherspoon. As I have said a number of times.

No one is saying he had to face them all, but at least one or two during 1984-1985. Plus of course facing his mandatory Page in 1983. I think that's a reasonable ask of a lineal champion. Instead he managed to face only one top 5 ranked fighter (Bey) over more than three years.

And he himself has stated the reason as to why he did (the quote JT provided).

Everyone with an open mind can see that he wanted to keep away from what he saw as the most dangerous fighters. He even said so himself, if one even had the slightest doubt.

There is nothing more to say than already has been said, so I'll leave it at that.

 

After the "Triple Crown Affair" ... Greg Page went 2-4 in his next six fights.

So who cares what the odds were. Page wasn't any better of a challenger than anyone else Holmes faced.

 

He barely beat Weaver but remember Weaver was an 18-9 trialhorse Big underdog who gained his confidence from this fight with Holmes, a rematch was a natural but after Weaver beat Tate it would have made for a nice unification.

Tate would have made nice money for Holmes and so would have Coetzee, Page & Dokes. Thomas had a nice window and Coetzee match would have brought in money especially afther Coetzee KO'd Dokes

I wanted to see the best fight the best as I do now but really got disgusted with Holmes who I met and liked but he should have retired if he was not going to fight the best.

Tyson came in & fought everyone in the tradition of Louis,Marciano,Ali, like Louis they fought the top contenders & rematched tough fights....Holmes did neither

 

He didn't?

Larry Holmes fought rematches with Earnie Shavers, Michael Spinks, Bonecrusher Smith and Mike Weaver. Didn't he? (He also beat up Berbick in a parking lot, for what it's worth.)

Larry Holmes fought the two lineal world champions who preceded him (Muhammad Ali and Leon Spinks). And Holmes fought three of the four lineal world champions who followed him (Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield).

Holmes fought all the lineal heavyweight champions from 1974 (Ali) to 1992 (Holyfield). The only one he missed was Buster Douglas.

Holmes went undefeated for the first 12 years of his career and made roughly 20 successful title defenses.

10 other men held either the WBA or the WBC belt when Holmes was the champion. Out of all of them, Mike Weaver (who Holmes stopped twice) had the second GREATEST number of successful title defenses after Holmes during that time.

Mike Weaver had TWO successful defenses.

Once again, Holmes had 20 (some say 19) successful defenses. Mike Weaver had TWO.

Witherspoon (who Holmes also beat) had one successful defense (in two reigns). Thomas had one. Dokes had one (a draw). Tate had zero. Coetzee had zero. Page had zero. Tubbs had zero. Leon Spinks (who Holmes also beat) had zero. Ali (who Holmes also beat) had zero.

And yes it would've been nice if he fought every last guy who had a strap when he was on top, but they tended to lose a lot.

John Tate and Greg Page were champs for FIVE WHOLE MONTHS each. Dokes was a champ for 10 WHOLE MONTHS. Witherspoon was a champ for FIVE WHOLE MONTHs when he had a WBC belt and a whopping 11 MONTHS when he was WBA beltholder.

And Holmes was never offered a fight with Pinklon Thomas. Holmes was never offered a fight with Michael Dokes. Holmes was never offered a rematch with Witherspoon. Holmes was NEVER offered a fight with Tubbs.

Holmes signed to fight Coetzee in 1984, but the fight was called off when the money fell thru.

Holmes also agreed to fight in the HBO unification tournament, which included Thomas, Tubbs, Witherspoon ... but Holmes lost the controversial rematch with Spinks, Thomas lost Berbick (who Holmes had already beaten), Tubbs lost to Spoon (who Holmes had already beaten) and Spoon lost to Bonecrusher (who Holmes had already beaten).

So, if you're disgusted by Holmes, how do you feel about the others? (LOL).

They accomplished a fraction of what he did.

 

I agree, I wanted Larry to fight unifications, but the governing bodies staunchly prevented that. They were quite happy not to have to have to share sanctioning fees with each other on less title fights. And in order for them to happen a champion had to win his mandatory first before unifying and they could hardly do that. Those guys kept on losing. Mostly because they were not seasoned enough to beat so many live opponents yet.

I agree that It did not help that Larry had a bad mouth and behaved like he didn’t have to fight those guys. That he didn’t need them. Once he beat Ali Larry behaved like a big shot. Everyone needed him more than he needed them. It did not help at all.

Ideally we all want a champion who takes on all comers. And is able to do that. Tyson appeared to do that -but only because the governing bodies were then committed to the HBO series. this meant under the terms they waived all their previous demands that had went on before. That’s how Tucker and Smith went straight into unifications with Tyson without taking mandatory defences. That had never been the case before.

Weaver had been forced to fight Coetzee. Dokes had been forced to fight Coetzee. The WBA had a love affair with Coetzee. Back in 1982 the WBA (the most ludicrous body who selected bob Arums guys as a top ten) actually threatened to strip Weaver if he fought #1 Cooney rather than #4 Tillis because of some previous contract whereby Weaver had been unable to defend his belt to him when Tillis had been the #1. Imagine that? Weaver forced into turning down the bigger payday against a higher rated contender? Then they threatened to strip Coetzee if he fought Holmes. They even threatened to strip Witherspoon if he did not rematch Tubbs and when it came to it Smith was substituted anyway.

So all that kind of thing had been waived in order to create an undisputed title. A path was laid for Tyson that was never allowed for anybody between 1978-85. That’s how Tyson was able to do everything the fans had wanted from Holmes. Thank HBO.

 

Greg Page turned professional while Larry Holmes was world champion and managed to lose 4 times before Holmes's reign was over
.
3 of the 4 who beat him were unsuccessful challengers to Holmes in the same period.
So Holmes didn't miss out much there.

 

Pinklon Thomas would have been a credible addition among Holmes's best challengers.

 

Yes but that's all hindsight which is the point of the matter. It's the same as people claiming Holmes was taking on the big dogs because he fought Witherspoon who was actually taken at the time as an easy defense. It was after the Holmes bout that Witherspoon#s rep grew not before. Many thought him lucky to get the D vs Snipes.

These are the facts and facts that so many seem to want to circumvent. Holmes is still great regardless of facing mostly stiffs and avoiding the best challengers the last few years of his reign.

 

it is not hindsight that shows Thomas got a crack at a belt after a draw. Because it happened. It is not hindsight that shows us that Page got a crack at a belt after losing his last fight. Because it happened. It is not hindsight that shows us that Weaver got a crack at Tate from losing to Larry then beating Scot Ledoux (who had not won his last two fights). That totally happened just like that. it is not hindsight that also shows us Dokes went life and death with Tex Cobb. Because he did. It wasn’t hindsight That was the case. This all happened just like that.

There’s few stiffs by comparison to the guys on the records of those winning rival belts. Tony Tubbs fought once in 1984. Coetzee got a shot at Weaver from winning one fight with a nobody since losing to Tate. Tillis challenged Weaver after beating a guy called Tom Fischer. Page lost his last fight..Thomas drew his last fight..

The best challengers were just kids tied up with belts they could not keep hold of. They challenged the guys they won the belt from with no greater resume than the weakest guys Larry defended against. Scott Frank drew with Snipes and got a title fight from it with Larry. And he’s the weakest one. When Thomas got a draw with Coetzee he got a title fight as well, only he won the darn thing. There wasn’t much difference between Snipes and Coetzee was there? And that’s not hindsight. Those guys fought. Snipes was awarded the decision when they met.

Witherspoon was #4 with Ring Magazine after beating Renaldo Snipes. Yes he had few fights.

 

As i said i've seen it all before from you and deffo won't be wasting my time. You are incapable of learning or digesting.

 

Trevor Berbick has wins over prime undefeated versions of Page and Thomas.
That's worth noting.

 

Fair go mate. He said tough matches, Holmes shut Shavers out in their initial match!

Spinks? Holmes was trying to win the title back and lucky Spinks had the grace to grant him a rematch pronto.

Weaver? 21 years later? Seriously? Smith 15 years later? Page beat Witherspoon in a rematch too. Jesus Christ.

 

Trevor Berbick had neither victory under his belt when he fought Holmes, worth noting as well.