Larry Holmes...did he miss out on Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas?

Your post fails in the first sentence.

Michael Spinks was looked at as no threat before their fist fight. That's one reason Holmes picked him as an opponent. Yes, they fought a rematch - because Spinks granted him one. Weaver was seen as a "no hope" trial horse when he challenged Holmes. International Boxing had an article about the upcoming contest. The title was "Mike Who?"
Why wouldn't he have a rematch with Shavers? He has already easily decisioned him in a pretty easy fight. Are you trying to say he fought rematches with Weaver and Bonecrusher? No, he didn't. But neither was a particularly risky proposition when he met them the first time. Berbick? His only win of note before fighting Holmes was the freakishly ended Tate fight, who was obviously damaged goods from the Weaver KO loss a few months earlier.

Yes, he fought a lot of champions.

But,

Ali was 38 and coming off a two year layoff, and had lost to a guy (Leon Spinks) who he would have toyed with in his prime.

Leon Spinks had been in the right place at the right time in beating Ali. Kudos to Leon. Then, he lost the rematch and was starched by Coetzee (a guy Holmes never fought) in one brutal round. Leon came back and his best win was over the highly rated, but also known to be very limited, Bernardo Mercado.

Holmes fought Tyson and Holyfield as a challenger. They were granting him fights.

Michael Spinks was a HW champion because he surprised everyone (including Holmes) in a huge upset when he was handpicked by Holmes to be the opponent to help Holmes get to Marciano's record.

And Witherspoon did win a title after scaring the shi% out of Holmes.

But, in '83 Holmes stopped fighting the best available competition.

He could have kept his WBC title and defended against the best of the Don King controlled crop.

- a rematch against Witherspoon
-Page
-Thomas
-Tubbs

 

Page would probably lose. He looked pretty bad in 1984 against Witherspoon, Bey and Coetzee.

Thomas might well have been too much for a 35 year old Holmes. He was fit and strong with a great jab.

 

That's correct too.
Berbick was actually considered a bit of a has-been when he dethroned Thomas.
It was certainly his best career win. Tate and Page were his next best.

But no one seems to put much value in Berbick beating those guys Holmes's legacy allegedly suffers from lacking wins against.

 

Berbick fit very well into the era - won some lost some and was quite impressive at times. Inconsistency pretty much plagued them all excepting Holmes. He was more dedicated and focussed than almost all of them and when he was having a tough day at the office he could still find his way home thru sheer heart and determination if need be. The way Holmes beat Berbick is an extremely good win. Berbick was tough and underrated and came to fight. His fight with the maturing Page is an interesting study. Regardless of Page breaking his right thumb early he still landed loads of big shots and Berbick was undeterred. Berbick also showed some good skill and tactics in that one. Unless you had a Mike Tyson like arsenal Berbick was going to be a long hard nights work.

 

A bit of trivia about Berbick.

Trevor Berbick’s main claim to fame, before he became Ali last career opponent, before he won the title and then lost it to a 20 year old Tyson, was that he was the man who stopped Larry Holmes from achieving a record breaking streak for consecutive knockouts in heavyweight title fights that would have stood to this present day.

 

There was no reason for Holmes not to rematch Weaver, Witherspoon,Williams,Norton, other than them being tough fights & if Holmes gave up a title not to fight Page, why would he not chance winning another title. If he had confidence he would have beaten Pinklon,Weaver,Tate,Coetzee,Dokes he would have had a title & fan reconition.

Sorry I have to place a lot of the blame on Holmes & the difference between him & some of the great Champions. There were too many he did not fight to make excuses for him. I liked Holmes the best of all (that era) but can not give him a pass, it was horrible navagation around tough fights, tough styles, & fighting the best of a weak era.

Could you imagine if Louis did not rematch Walcott?, Godoy,& other fighters he had trouble with? Could you imagine if Marciano did not rematch Walcott,Charles or Roland LaStarza? Could you imagine if Ali did not rematch Norton,Frazier,Cooper or Liston?

 

When you put it like that no, I can’t imagine those guys not taking those rematches. And that’s why Ali, Louis and Marciano all deserve to go ahead of Larry because their legacy shows they were each able to leave no stones left unturned.

It hurts Larrys legacy that he does not deserve comparison with those guys. I don’t give him a pass. I just wish he won a unified title in the first place because then he would have had rematches, he would have had to fight those guys and we would absolutely know what would have happened.

 

I think his failure to grant Witherspoon and Williams immediate rematches hurts his standing most.

 

Ali lost the first Norton fight. It was Norton who gave Ali the chance of rematch. Which Ali won. These were no title fights.

Later on, Ali defended the title against Norton (in a fight most expected to be an easier task for Ali than earlier encounters) and was gifted a very disputed decision.
Ali then avoided a fourth meeting with Norton.

Ali's avoidance of a fourth fight (second title fight) with Norton is very similar to what Holmes did with Witherspoon and Williams.

Also, the Jimmy Young fight was seriously disputed. Ali didn't rematch Young.

George Foreman possibly deserved a rematch with Ali in 1976 too.

Ali pretty much had the same attitude as Holmes at the later stages of their reigns.
ie. Willing to take the top ranked challengers BUT only if the money is big, big money.

 

This is a very good point. Lucky for Ali his legacy is so strong up to the Ron Lyle fight that he gets a pass for what came after it. Not rematching Foreman, Norton and Young who were at least as worthy as Witherspoon and Williams were to Larry.

Which makes me think why if the 1978 scene so weak where was George Foreman in all of this? I don’t think big John Tate or Coetzee stood him much problem. Larry, I’m not so sure.

 

Pretty sure Foreman had walked away from boxing and became dedicated to god for the next decade. Are you implying his 10 years preaching on street corners, becoming a reverend and funding and starting a youth center was just an excuse to wait for a weak heavyweight champ?

 

I don't know if you're ignoring my posts or just choosing not to accept fact.

Gerrie Coetzee was MORE deserving. He was the WBA champ. And Holmes and Coetzee DID AGREE to fight in June 1984. But the financing fell thru at the last minute. The bout kept getting pushed back. And finally it was called off.

Holmes DID agree to face Coetzee. You thought he should've fought Coetzee. So did he. They signed to fight, but the money didn't come thru.

And WHILE Holmes was making a fight with Coetzee, Witherspoon fought Page and beat him. But by the time Holmes-Coetzee was called off ...

WITHERSPOON HAD ALREADY LOST AGAIN. Tim held the WBC belt for FIVE WHOLE MONTHS.

Are you guys just plucking names out of their air? Put it in context.

Holmes BEAT Witherspoon in 1983. Holmes signed to fight Coetzee in 1984. By the time the Coetzee fight with Holmes was called off, Witherspoon had already lost again. Page had already lost TWICE that year.

So Holmes fought Bonecrusher Smith, who was actually WINNING fights that year and had just knocked out the undefeated Frank Bruno.

 

Nobody was considered a real threat to Holmes when he was champion before he fought them. The only guy who was almost even money to beat Holmes was Ali, who failed miserably.

 

When was Larry Holmes floored twice in a fight and given a split decision win?

Who was he supposed to rematch who he didn't rematch? Witherspoon? Are you comparing Louis-Walcott I with Holmes-Witherspoon?

 

So, basically, this whole thread is Larry Holmes didn't fight enough rematches with people he had already beaten, except for the guys he did rematch with who he had already beaten.

And he didn't fight Tony Tubbs.

So Larry Holmes is a disgrace.

Got it.