Larry Holmes...did he miss out on Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas?

No I don’t think he was waiting for a weak champion, I think that if he felt like it, all Foreman had to do to prevent him from being a champion again was either fight a guy he already snuffed out in two rounds or take on a 19-0 kid that Weaver smoked.

 

It would've been "nice" to see Holmes fight Weaver again or fight Witherspoon again.

But those guys had accomplished next to nothing before fighting Holmes. He was a monster favorite to beat both. He clearly took them for granted. Had he rematched them right away, he'd likely have beaten them even easier (like Holmes did when he and Weaver did rematch many years later).

All these guys being trotted out were people who made waves for one fight, then lost. Made waves again, then lost. Came back again, then lost a couple times. None of them put any decent winning streaks together.

As I posted last night, Mike Weaver is the only fighter who held a title thru Holmes entire eight year run who made at least TWO successful defenses. Most of the guys who snagged paper belts couldn't manage even one successful defense.

The only guy Holmes fought who probably deserved an immediate rematch was Ken Norton.

Norton was considered the top heavyweight in the world in 1977 and early 1978, even though he didn't have a belt until Leon got stripped.

Holmes-Norton was a great fight. It warranted an immediate rematch. But Norton got knocked out by Shavers, and it was Shavers who got the rematch with Holmes.

Who was the best guy Witherspoon even beat? Frank Bruno? Witherspoon was no Norton. Carl Williams certainly wasn't.

 

I agree.

In 1986, Holmes-Spinks, Thomas-Berbick, Tubbs-Spoon all agreed to take part in the HBO unification tournament.

HBO was hoping to see a final between Holmes and Thomas.

Unfortunately, Holmes lost a really poorly scored decision to Michael Spinks in their return bout. Berbick beat Thomas. And Witherspoon beat Tubbs.

Had Holmes been given the verdict against Spinks, the only two champions left in the tourney were two guys Holmes had already beaten in title fights (Berbick and Witherspoon).

(Tyson wasn't entered until Holmes and Thomas lost, because the tourney had lost its two top guys and HBO knew the tournament needed help.)

So there's every chance, had Holmes been given the nod over Spinks, we'd have seen a Holmes-Berbick rematch and, after Tim beat Bruno, a Holmes-Witherspoon rematch in the final.

But the judges robbed Larry.

 

This is the main issue for the ones who didn’t fight Holmes too. Without accomplishing much before fighting a belt holder they became “champion” against a guy who also had not accomplished much of anything.. these belts made the fighter rather than the fighter making the belts.

 

Snipes was dropped 2X in a fight with Coetzee & Don Kings judges robbed Coetzee& Holmes fought Snipes instead & almost lost.

Holmes should have given Weaver a rematch because he gave Holmes hell & most felt he had no chance, Weaver gained confidence from the Holmes fight & went on to beat Tate who was a champion like Holmes & became Champ, 2 reasons why Holmes should have unified & rematched.

Norton should have been given a rematch SD, 15 fight Witherspoon should has been given a rematch many felt Holmes lost,16 fight Carl Williams should have been given a rematch,many felt Holmes lost.

Thomas,Page,Dokes,Coetzee,Weaver,Tate were also fights that would have made Holmes money but Holmes avoided all of them instead fighting those below

Ocasio had 13 fights
Bey had 14 fights
Spinks 12-2-2 & was KO'd in 1 by Coetzee 2 yrs before
Zanon
Rodriguez
Evangelista
LeDoux
Frank 20 fights
Snipes 22fights
Frazier 10 fights
Smith 14-1
David Bey (Bey only won 4 of his next 15 fights after Holmes

Holmes best wins
Cooney (good $ fight and one of Holmes best defenses but Cooney never fought past 8rds)
Shavers (good fight fought Earnie right after Ali beat Earnie) Rematch was a scare )

Michael Spinks LD X2 (Spinks 1st fight as a heavyweight

point is Holmes may have beaten some of the avoided. IMO he would lose to a few of them because of styles

 

The fact is, a lot of people thought Witherspoon deserved the decision against Holmes in 1983. It was highly controversial. So an immediate rematch would have been nice.

Of course, instead, the WBC were pushing for Holmes to fight Page.
.... and Holmes went for Scott Frank and Marvis Frazier.

Don King and Jose Sulaiman were pulling the strings, so I'm not sure Holmes could have granted Witherspoon (a King fighter by then, presumably) an immediate rematch for the WBC title even if he'd wanted to .... but Holmes didn't want to !

You are 100% correct in defending Holmes for his 1984 efforts (or willingness) to fight Gerrie Coetzee.

I think the lack of a Carl Williams rematch in 1985 is even more damning to Holmes. Since by then, Holmes was being given a bit of free reign by his new sanctioning body, the IBF.
They would have been happy for him to fight anyone. And the Williams fight was highly controversial, 15 rounds, very close.

Any champion who has fights as close and as disputed as those should want to settle matters with an immediate rematch, or else retire.

 

yes Larry made a point of saying he didn’t need Witherspoon. They needed him. Which was bad really. Like you say though, the match could not have been made if he wanted to.

yes, if Larry wanted Williams again I imagine a path would have been laid open to make that fight. The Spinks fight came next. And for Williams a blasting out by Weaver. So without a rematch, within the same time frame both Larry and Williams had lost fights they were expected to win.

ideally yes. With just one championship both champion and challenger have less options and that should happen. Absolutely. Marciano and Louis did this and presumably they were a lot easier to make. However, like you say Ali DID not do this with Norton or Young during his reign even though he was undisputed. So there is a small argument that Larry was no worse than Ali in that respect. Probably the difference is Larry outright said he did not want them and people remember that part more than Ali not saying it about rematches he did not take.

 

But Page could potentially outjab Larry.

 

Page didn't have half the Jab Larry had.

 

True, but he had a good enough jab to keep Larry on the alert. And in 1983/1984, had more than enough to beat Larry.

 

No....never...Page was never in Larry's class.

 

Holmes should've fought both, I think Thomas would've been a big threat to Holmes. I think both Page and Thomas would take him the distance. I see Holmes beating Page in a competitive fight, Thomas I think would much like Witherspoon and Williams would give Holmes all he could handle. Thomas may even be able to win a decision over Holmes. It would be interesting to see how Thomas's career would be viewed or had gone if he was the one who took Holmes belt.

 

It was a strange era. Larry kept managing to avoid tougher opponents than the ones he ended up fighting, but at the same time, all of those other guys kept losing to each other at crucial moments, ruining the set up for Holmes. Still, I think Larry's attitude about being champion was poor and cynical.

 

Ali did not rematch foreman.. And every Ali bootlicker will make an excuse

 

https://www.ringtv.com/361845-george-foreman-muhammad-alis-trainer-demand-prevented-rematch/