Larry Holmes failing to take on # 1 contenders

The benefit of losing was not for Tim. King instructed him to lose, and I've already posted an entire thread providing evidence as to why. You're simply making assumptions by saying that Smith had no value, and the truth is, it was neither Smith nor Witherspoon who King was building up at the time.

 

Aren't you missing a few letters?

Good post :good

 

I have to agree with you there, One thing about Tyson is that he was willing to fight all of them, Tucker,Tubbs,Berbick,BoneClutcher,Thomas...Tyson would have destroyed Witherspoon, Dokes and Cus made him fight the best...When King got himself into the picture after Cus died and stole Mikes mind, it was all down hill from there but he was on his way. If you look at Holmes record against the top men in the division as SUZIE -Q displayed with the Ring Rating, you can see Holmes avoided the best of his times, Yes we can all argue that they eventually lost(they were not the most disiplined era) but Holmes could have made a lot of money fighting them as well, David Bey was really an unknown, Spinks had a 10-2-2 record, M.Frazier 10 fights, Scott Frank was green and that fight was stopped on a thumb. Ocasio had 13 fights....Holmes thought Spinks would be an easy fight (and he was for Tyson)...Fact is Dokes,Page,Coetzee,Thomas,Weaver,Tate all presented a window of opportunity for Holmes to make BIG $$$$ but for some reason he let them slip away. Was it because Dokes,Page,Coetzee,Thomas,Weaver,Tate all were better than decent RIGHT HAND punchers. We will never know but there were NO other Heavyweights that avoided even 1 top contender like Holmes did 6 and that is not counting rematches that he never gave to Weaver,Witherspoon,Williams. Posters may think I have an ax to grind against Larry and I dont, he was my favorite fighter in that division in the 80's but I started to dislike the politics of not allowing the best to fight the best and you got to blame Larry for part of it.

 

PROVE IT and no Witherspoon saying that he tanked the fight is not enough.

I have heard this bull**** before that Tyson supposedly ducked Witherspoon.

yet there is no evidence to support this claim.

80s Tyson fought anyone wanted a fight .

FACT Witherspoon and BoneCrusher Smith fought an elimination fight for the right to fight Tyson.

Witherspoon LOST thereby losing his shance to fight Tyson.

Anything else is speculation.

 

Excellent post! I agree with everything that you posited. The guys that keep trying to explain away why Larry Holmes didn't fight Page or Thomas or any of the other guys that Larry avoided seem to be trying to practice a little revisionist history. Holmes just happened to avoid the guys that were more experienced. Witherspoon, Williams, Frazier, Bey, e.t.c were not seen as major threats when Holmes fought them. They were green and inexperienced. Page and Thomas were not viewed in that light. Of course they were lazy and didn't always perform to a high standard, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they had a lot of skill and were dangerous when they showed up in shape and focused. Holmes flat out refused to fight them. I'm a big fan of Larry Holmes, but the truth is that he avoided a lot of guys that were viewed as legitimate threats to his title, regardless of how those guys ultimately turned out.

 

To say there was a stench of pickled herring in the Witherpsoon vs Smith re-match is an understatement. Witherpsoon easily out pointed Smith in the first fight a year and a half ago. It was a near shut out scored 11 rounds to 1 on all three cards for Witherspoon. 11-1!

Some think the re-match between Witherpsoon and Smith was fixed. Witherspoon may have taken a dive to get a " pay day " or get an out from Don King. Witherspoon's home was also robbed on the same night, possibly from some gamblers who felt betting on him was easy money.

While Bonecrusher Smith could punch, this knock out seems fishy. It was the lone time Witherspoon was down in his first 53 fights! Maybe even more than that.

 

First of all, I'm not claiming that Tyson PERSONALLY ducked Witherspoon himself, nor that the Smith fight, was rigged soley for the purpose of Witherspoon not fighting Tyson, but rather King getting rid of a perceived problem, and for multiple reasons. As for Witherspoon's testimony that he tanked the fight, what other proof do you want? A written confession from King himself? Not gonna happen.

In 1990, I watched a fight between Tim Witherspoon and a journeyman named Jeff Simms. During the pre fight interviews Sean O'Grady was told by Tim Witherspoon that Don King Specifically said " you will throw this fight or test positive for drugs". For a fighter to publicly claim that his arm was twisted to throw a fight is a touchy thing, and not something that anyone would just throw out there.

The relationship between King and Witherspoon brings more questions to the table. They were having constant desputes over purses, fight conditions, etc. King paid Bruno more for their 1986 title bout then what Witherspoon-the champion, had received. Tim threatened to sue King, and later did. Bottom line, is that Tim was a thorn in King's ass. In the meantime, Don had a young prospect coming up who he knew he could sell to the public. He was all too glad to get rid of Witherspoon.

Think anout this: Tim easily beat Smith maybe a year before they fought for the second time. In the meantime, Tim had acquired his best wins over Tony Tubbs and Frank Bruno, while Smith was aged 33/34 years. You don't find it the least bit suspicious that Witherspoon just dropped in a single round?

In the years that would follow from 1986-1989, Witherspoon was winning fights against comp that was no worse than fighters who were getting shots at Tyson, yet his rating continued to drop. King had the major organizations in his back pocket in those days, therefore its no surprise to me that Tim had basically been black balled from the heavyweight picture. Upon losing to Witherspoon in early 1986, Tony Tubbs took over a year off, and returned in 1987 to face 3 journeyman named Mike Jameson, Eddie Gonzalez and Jerry Halstead. None were ranked. Two of them took Tubbs the distance and one even dropped him. Tubbs all of a sudden finds himself ranked at the top of the division to face Tyson, while Witherspoon was ranked somewhere down at like 20 something. Bruno was KO'd by both Smith and Witherspoon, gets a few wins against some aging veterans, then is out of the ring for 16 months, but gets a shot at Tyson. If you don't think that the rating system, nor King's shady tactics, sets a pattern here, then I don't know what to tell you.

I do not think that King's fixing the Smith-Witherspoon fight, then manipulating the ratings had anything to do with Tyson personally ducking Witherspoon, but rather Tyson being kept away from him by his team's own doing. During the early 90's, Tim came back strong and this time was begining to regain a foot hold in the division. On several occasions, I heard commentators make reference to the rumor that the only fighter Tyson's camp wanted nothing to do with was Tim Witherspoon.....

 

A man who tells it like it is. Were you living and breathing boxing around 1983 by any chance?

 

Tyson KO'd Tubbs, Berbick,Thomas,Spinks,Williams(Spinks,Tubbs,Thomas were never Ko'd b4) and the only reason he did not stop Boncrusher (he became Boneclutcher after that fight)Smith was because Smith held on for dear life. Tony Tucker acually put up a decent fight but fought a defensive fight but he landed a few telling blows to gain Mikes respect and keep him at bay. Witherspoon would have had a hard time holding back the early power of Tyson, he simply did not have the workrate and Bonecrusher took him out of the way because Tim was not really prepared for a fast paced 12 rd bout as usual. I have Never heard it WAS A DIVE AND TO BE FRANK, DID NOT THINK Witherspoon to be ever a dominant fighter, even the fights he won were close and there is nothing (watch the fight again) that looks fishy about the stop or the fact that Tim got caught cold and got shook up and dropped 3 times

 

There is no logical reason to have kept Tyson away from Witherspoon.

Witherspoon was good but is see no great difference in skill between Witherspoon and guys Tyson did fight in the 80s.

I have seen nothing in Witherspoon that would suggest that he would have been a fighter Team Tyson would have needed to avoid.

I dont buy that Team Tyson avoided Witherspoon . He was good but nothing that 80s Tyson could not have handled.

I can believe that King ****ed Witherspoon over for reasons his own i dont buy that he did it to protect Tyson Witherspoon was not that big of a threat.

 

Keeping Tyson away from Witherspoon was not the sole reason why King wanted Tim removed from the heavyweight picture, though I believe he preffered not to have him in the same ring with a young Tyson. I think it had more to do with the adversity and the problems that Witherspoon and King were having from a business sense.

Still, I stand by my belief that Tim Witherspoon's fight with Boncrusher Smith was a fix, no matter the reason.

 

Witherspoon was spitting blood and teeth after losing to Smith.

 

Somthing that tends to happen when you just let someone beat the **** out of you. A women gave me a fat lip once. Rather easy given that I didn't fight back..

 

From what I remember, Holmes was offered 30 million dollars to fight Coetzee in South Africa, but turned it down because of Apartheid.