Larry Holmes Had Better Fundamentals Than Ali

This was my scorecard of Williams vs Holmes its a close fight Williams had the better of it early on, but Holmes come on strong in the later rounds. It depends how big of a lead you think Williams had early on and whether or not you think Holmes's late rally was enough.


Carl Williams vs Larry Holmes

1 Williams
2 Williams
3 Even
4 Holmes
5 Williams
6 Williams
7 Holmes
8 Holmes
9 Holmes
10 Williams
11 Williams
12 Holmes
13 Williams
14 Holmes
15 Holmes

143-143 Draw

 

That would be ****ing crazy. All good bro. Nobody misreads things more than myself.

I also didn't word it very well, and I can easily see how one can misinterpret it.

 

I wasn't aware that anybody disputed this.

 

With all due respect to the original poster there were several boxers with "better fundamentals" than Ali who rank below him in historical rankings.

 

Something to seriously consider...

 

Many fighters had better fundamentals than Ali.

 

Holmes is a top five atg but a lot of times good fundamentals means lacks elite athleticism.

 

Ali like Jones Jr. Depended on extraordinary physicality with average technical skills. Compared to Holmes and Hagler average physicality, but superior technical skills.
Holmes indeed had better fundamentals than Ali.
But prime vs prime I'd pick Ali 3 out of 3, and post forced to retire version of Ali until 1974 to beat Holmes 2 out of 3 .
A poster mentioned the fact of Alfedo Evangelista and Ken Norton were more competitive against Ali than Holmes.
But they should've looked more competitive. Ali was at the very tail end of his career against Evangelista, And Norton was at the tail end of his career against Holmes. Yet Norton gave Holmes all kinds of hell.
Ali didn't need technical superiority to be a great fighter, like Robinson, Jones Jr, Armstrong and others didn't require it .
Holmes required it, like Louis, Arguello, Sanchez, and others needed it .
Holmes technical superiority allowed him to have a longer career, but it wouldn't have carried him to victory over some of the fighters Ali beat.

 

didn't Ali teach Holmes his jab? in that sense, without Ali there would be no Holmes, I don't think it's that Ali didn't have fundamentals, but rather he rarely had to use them in fights, there are occasional moments where he displayed some more traditional head movement or slipped out from the corner, the less he had to use them the more unpredictable and effective they would be, that's ring IQ

 

Excellent way to put it. Ali didn't have less fundamentals but he certainly used them much less often than Holmes. Would've served him very well to resort to them, as he was aging and his athleticism was fading.

 

Infighting and body punching by Ali is really most defined by his performances against Blue Lewis, Karl Mildenberger, Cleveland Williams, Brian London, Bugner II and Terrell in that order as I see it. He did war inside with Frazier in Manila, continually spinning Smoke's jaw with his hook as Joe slowly bore in.

The fight were Ali's body punching alone was enough to win was Blue Lewis. Even without the knockdown, Ali's body punching in Dublin wins the decision if it reaches the final bell.

Jabbing. Watch Ocasio-Young I & II, then Holmes-Ocasio. Jaws was as well prepared for a great jab as he possibly could have been after 20 rounds with Jimmy, actively parried against the jab from Larry, yet the power behind the Holmes jab pounded Ossie back. The first knockdown was as Liston described his jab. It went right through the back of Ocasio's head, bowling him over, and Ossie had to struggle mightily to get up at nine. This was seconds after Larry seriously wobbled him with a previous jab. His best display of his jab as an offensive bludgeon.

Ali's jab was at its deadliest in Jerry Quarry II. At one point, he nearly decked JQ with it. Following that, Jack Palance (who was a boxer before becoming an actor) as ringside analyst commented that Muhammad could possibly knock somebody out with his jab under the right circumstances. But in a HW Title bout, that first KD of Ocasio by Holmes came the closest I've ever seen to producing a ten count by a jab.

Versatility. Ali could duck, go underneath, and it looks to me as though he's the harder and more damaging puncher in Norton II. Ken went in thinking Muhammad couldn't hurt him. Then, Ali dropped a bomb of a right cross in round six with 50 seconds left which knocked Norton silly. The slow motion replay after after that round showed how powerful it was. (Somewhat surprising the GOAT didn't go for the kill, but it may have been the key punch of their second match.) Earlier, in round four, Muhammad's hook knocked Kenny back two steps. No question Ali hit Norton MUCH harder than Holmes did.



Larry did stop one opponent on the strength of a single body shot, but it was a monster. In his late career, he took on Paul Poirier, coming of stoppage defeats to Alex Stewart and Tony Tucker. The two of them were coming together when Holmes unloaded a loud thud of a right which visibly rippled through from the left to right (facing the camera) of Poirier's body, separating his rib cartilage, forcing him to immediately draw a sharp breath, then resulting in a seven second delayed knockdown which drew some suspicious booing from the crowd. In response to this, Larry in a neutral corner gestured to ringside analyst Sean O'Grady by tapping his body with his right glove.

Paul courageously soldiered on, but couldn't remain upright through the remainder of the round. Between rounds, as he vigorously protested to the referee, "More! More! More!," the official stopped the contest, and Poirier's career was over. He said it was the hardest punch he was ever hit by anybody with. Looking at, and hearing the footage, I wouldn't swear it wasn't the hardest punch Holmes ever landed. He got all of his bodyweight, considerably increased from his championship days, into it.

Facing Carl Williams, Larry pulled it out of the fire late by unloading some huge body shots which visibly affected Williams.

During his early career, Holmes attacked the body of big Tiger Williams with left hooks. He momentarily out jabbed Larry at this early stage, and wobbled him at the very end with a deadly left hook, but Roy's sparring partner mentality combined with the Holmes initiative decided the outcome.

Regarding the left hook, the reverse angle of the first hook Ali decked Bonavena with strongly suggests that may have been the hardest single punch of the GOAT's career from either side, a deadly slip and counter which Norman Mailer did not excessively describe, however extravagantly.

Holmes never relied on athleticism or the ability to withstand punishment. Everything flowed through his jab. That, and the fact he began as a fully grown tall adult HW (I don't recall ever seeing him duck in his career, a key tactic for Ali to neutralize Norton's overhand right in their second bout) is the reason Larry has all his marbles today. (Holmes does need to manage his weight for dealing with a diabetic scare, while Foreman looks to be in good physical condition.)

 

Holmes might have better fundamentals in some aspects of his game. But Ali’s footwork was vastly superior. He was also a better adaptor than Holmes.

 

Holmes was overall better than Ali. His jab was much better than Ali’s, mainly because he actually landed it instead of just flicking it out and having only glancing contact. Ali is mainly a myth.

 

How did a myth beat four Olympic Gold Medal champions, six members of the International Boxing Hall Of Fame, two consensus top ten all time great heavyweights , one bubble top ten all time great heavyweight, and virtually clean out the heavyweight division in two different decades? As for his jab being a myth how was he the only boxer to stop Oscar Bonavena and Georges Foremen in one hundred and forty nine fights?