Larry Holmes Had Better Fundamentals Than Ali

Ali was better at keeping guys in his pocket for the majority of the fight and setting them at the perfect distance from a clinch, his "1, 2" jab right was better

he actually does some really nice inside work here

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I’ve always felt that Ali’s performance against Liston in their first fight was one of his most conventional displays.

I’ve read that when a very young Ali trained, he stayed behind in the gym after everyone had left, repeatedly practising all his “by the book” punches - jab, hooks, straight right, etc - and we certainly saw Liston get hit by each and everyone of those those copy book shots.

 

That UPI card is a joke. Makes me laugh when people produce judges cards in some Ali fights as 'evidence'. I'd be more confident of getting the judges nod fighting Chavez in Puebla City.

 

So that's where Mike Tyson got his lifestyle. Everything make sense now!

 

Good opportunity for me to link a different angle on the right hand Shavers landed on Ali in round 2.

Incredible shot and note that the form, speed and accuracy of Shavers right hand is excellent. Pulled the trigger perfectly just after Ali got up on his toes and began to dance.

Underrated technique imo though, in general, Earnie could sometimes become sloppy as the rounds rolled on due to fatigue. However, against Ali, Earnie paced himself very well.

I have never seen this perspective before - I find it annoying when other clips are out there but less often seen like this one.

Unfortunately the cropped framing doesn’t catch the complete vision upon and just after impact but you can see Ali go completely limp for a sec or two as he stumbles back.

No man has a right to have a chin like that - ultimately detrimental to one’s health. Going down and out would’ve been more merciful.

The punch is about 5-10 secs in.

[url]https://youtube.com/shorts/RwS9uAXLryM?feature=share[/url]

 

Thanks for this. Ali staggers back the way he did when Frazier hit him against the ropes during the FOTC with a monster hook Muhammad wasn't in position to roll with, first buckling his knees as he was bending forward, then forcing him to stumble backwards to the ropes with 16 seconds left in round 11. By far the most damaging punch Smoke delivered in their trilogy, even more so than the round 15 knockdown punch (which Ali saw coming and this time tried to roll through in mid ring).

Combine what Ali was doing in 1966 and 1967 with what we now know about his resistance to the hardest body shots and punch resistance with that chin, I just don't understand how anybody could argue he's not the GOAT. Without a wrongly imposed exile and hiatus (he never should have been reclassified from 4F to !A for the Vietnam draft with his dyslexia), he'd have been a complete monster from mid 1967 to mid 1970. Then what? Frazier and Norton would have had no chance to be competitive with him.

There can never be a HW too big, fast, quick and strong that Ali couldn't defeat. He's forever the HW GOAT.

 

No worries Boss.

Yes, truly a great fighter.

In those last16 seconds, Ali was trying to play act also, with arms down stepping back but the irony was his legs were still not completely under him and he involuntarily stuttered backward

 

I made a thread regarding the second bout with a poll. Ali has nearly triple the votes as Norton. [url]Norton VS Ali II | Boxing News 24 Forum (boxingforum24.com)[/url]

This post clarifies my thoughts exactly. Especially the first two sentences. I never thought it was particularly close, at all. Ali won handily imo.

 

I feel like by the time Ali's athleticism started to fade he was deteriorated enough that even reflexes for fundamentals were pretty shot

 

Well, during the 1960's, he used his legs to conserve his arms, and he was an extremely diligent gym rat. But during his exile, he really let himself go, and by 1969, his gut was actually bigger than Marciano's for Murray Woroner's staged super fight. (Rocky really whipped himself back into shape for that performance. At age 45 with a bad back, he prepared himself almost as diligently as he did during his career.)

Chuvalo and Patterson were explicit in stating how much Ali's athleticism deteriorated from the mid 1960's to the early 1970's. They provided a unique and terrific frame of reference.

From mid 1967 to early 1970, a never exiled Ali might deteriorate due to lack of competition. I do think he gets Frazier before Joe's 1969-early 1970 peak, and I expect Bonavena to extend him, but then the list of opponents during that era who could give him a good workout becomes rather thin.

I think the relaxed and intelligent Jerry Quarry of the Thad Spencer masterpiece can pose a decent challenge, but counterpunching wasn't the way to beat Muhammad, as Patterson I demonstrated. Henry Cooper pulled off that extremely rare trick in decking him, and JQ dropped Spencer the same way, so the extremely quick Jerry of 1968 might have produced a surprise or two, but as Foreman pointed out, his versatility often worked against him. Ali himself was a criminally underrated counterpuncher.

Big George? In any venue, his ring cutting mastery would always impel Muhammad to engage, but Foreman said that even in mid ring while flatfooted, he wasn't able to compete with Ali's hand speed and defensive elusiveness. Muhammad eyes were wide open and alert, while even his jabs were making George blink. I see no way that Foreman could ever take Ali out within five rounds. Beyond that limit, George is dead in the water with Muhammad's toughness and ridiculous stamina.

Who beats a never exiled Ali first? Even without fracturing his jaw, I think Norton has the overhand right and hand speed to reach over his defensive lean and surprise him in a first go around. (Liston attempted to cultivate an overhand right for their rematch, but Sonny simply didn't have the frame for supporting that. Meanwhile, Kenny couldn't throw a straight right to save his life, but that would be a non factor with Muhammad. Charley Goldman always asked Marciano, "Are you comfortable?" He made sure Rocky fought within his physical limitations.) For Norton II, Ali adapted by ducking Norton's overhand right. Muhammad's ducking is an overlooked part of his defensive skills. Because Holmes was always a tall HW, Larry did very little ducking.

For me, Ali's post exile discovery that he could really absorb punishment worked against him badly.

As you said, food for thought. A quality piece of speculation to be enjoyed here

 

Fundamentals don't necessarily mean championships or greatness.

Prime Ali had an "it" that I can't identify or quantify, that puts him at the top of my heavyweight list.

 

That "it" was sprouted out of extreme early motivation, I suspect.

He started at 12 weighing 98 pounds and first gained recognition boxing on television for Joe Martin's "Tomorrow's Champions." He'd flail away like Notre Dame gridiron players in Bengal Bouts, then keep going when his arms were ready to fall off. Sean O'Grady has expressed the opinion that this is how speed is attained, through the amateur ranks. Because he started at such a small size and age of his OWN volition (unlike Jerry and Mike Quarry), he developed an array of abilities as he got bigger. His amateur record was 100-5. He'd been competing for a decade when he dethroned Liston.

Gridiron guys like Tom Brady, Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas were spurred by being only sixth round draft picks. The original chip on Ali's shoulder though was the theft of his prized bike, inducing him to want to find and beat up that thief, driving him through the remainder of his boxing career. Joe Martin commenced to show him how, he obtained additional clandestine training from Fred Stoner (largely responsible for the development of his boxing physique) then Chuck Bodak (whose 1979 book "Boxing Basics" is in my library).