Larry Holmes is 75 years old today...

Same age Foreman had better first and second careers in the sports two best modern eras while Holmes dominated the easier period in between. Foreman had more power more durability than and would have even had a better jab than Holmes if he needed to use it which he didn't. His jab certainly would have been stronger.

People come up with excuses for Foreman against Ali because he wasn't himself won one round and got knocked out the only time of his career and never had anything similar in his career. Its hard to do that with Norton when Holmes showed up and was feeling well enough to build a big lead and also felt well enough to hold off a comeback at the end. It was a close title fight against a legendary HW whats there to excuse? As champion Holmes would have several scares against lesser fighters than Norton. Its not like this was one lone hiccup in a reign where no one came close to beating Holmes.

Ney is right to have Holmes lower top 10.

 

Part of that post I’m just talking about @Ney disliking Holmes as a man, these “stats” you’re throwing up are all pretty much very debatable to false.

 

“They gots to give me worse hospitals than this.”

 

Everyone will rate them as they wish,but to state Foreman had a better jab than Holmes is just BS.To say how two fighters perform against common opponents indicates their respective standing in the ATG rankings is totally misleading,and ignores several things,"styles make fights,"being just one of them.Foreman was by far the harder puncher,and proved it by demolishing Frazier and Norton quickly,but that doesn't mean he was the better fighter. Ali struggled with both of them,does that mean George was his superior?
Ali had scares with Cooper and Banks,would Foreman or Frazier have? Frazier gave Ali life and death twice,but couldn't put a dent in George, other than Joe was stylistically made for Foreman , what does that signify?

 

Exactly for example Foreman went life and death with Lyle and lost a comprehensive points decision to Young. More than likely Holmes would box Lyle's head off and would outpoint Young.

Foreman had a good style vs Frazier and Norton but he had issues vs boxers and I believe H2H Holmes is a bad style match up for Foreman.

I also think saying Foreman had a better career than Holmes in his 1st career is a bit baffling when he retired at age 28 after a bad loss to Young. Foreman may of had the best single win over Frazier but Holmes had more than double the world title wins and Foreman was only champion for a year and a half compared to 7 years for Holmes.

 

What's Foreman’s excuse then ? Ali was past his prime Foreman was considered at his absolute peak and a considerable favourite.

It seems like everytime Foreman has a bad performance or loses there's always an excuse for him but for Holmes there isn't any for example......

Holmes's injury vs Norton is totally dismissed by you.

Holmes having the flu and being under the weather vs Weaver is totally dismissed by you.

But Foreman not having any known injuries or being unwell in any of his losses or poor performances yet there's excuses for him "not being himself" or "being mentally broken after losing to Ali"

Sounds like copium to me.

 

We should judge an excuse by how much it visibly effects them. Thats the proof. Physical, mental thats what matters. Physical ailments shouldn't be put on a pedestal over mental ones. The brain is the most important part of the body. #Mentalhealthmatters.

Ali was the 32 year old champion and held his belt another 4 years. Its hard to tell how far past his absolute peak he was because his SOS got better in his 30s but in those 4 years Ali beat the other 6 best HWs not named Ali or Foreman. Foreman had a bad day on many levels. into his late 40s was never knocked out but in the Ali fight he was taken out in round 8 after barely winning a round. I don't bring up the poision thing often because theres no proof but even if it was all in his head Foreman felt bad enough he thought someone poisioned him.

If a fighter comes out and is throwing a nearshutout for half the fight against possibly the best other HW at the time theres no reason to put an asterisk on that. I don't excuse the Jimmy Young fight because Foreman showed up and fought Jimmy Young close to the extent he started spiraling it was at the end when we had a full fight behind us. He did better against Young than Lyle did.

I can see the flu with Weaver having an effect on Holmes and doing better other days. But the reason no one excuses Holmes struggles is they weren't a one time thing. For excuses to hold weight a performance has to be an aberration from what we typically expect. Louis or Wladimir Klitschko almost losing(during their reigns) you look for a reason to explain why. With Holmes you don't do that.

 

Could Holmes knock fighters out with the jab? Obviously Holmes used it a lot more and i'm talking in a hypothetical sense.


Styles make fights assumes that both fighters put up a typical effort. Ali was a tougher matchup for Foreman than Frazier and Norton but him getting knocked out in the 8th round and freaking out doesn't simply come down to "styles make fights". Him getting outpointed does. Theres nothing in "styles makes fights" that suggests Ali could have knocked out Foreman midway through the fight.

You already know I rate Foreman higher. I do so because he did better against their common opposition and because Foreman is responsible for Ali being considered the GOAT today over Lennox Lewis.

 

I'd never thought of Foreman being a defining fight for Ali status. I think a crude, powerful brawler was made for Ali and, perhaps this is heresy, think his wins over Frazier and Liston are more impressive. I'd go as far as suggesting I might, might, still have Ali as GOAT without the Foreman fight...oh, now I'm gonna be thinking about this all day..

 

Holmes's first knockdown of Ocasio was with a stiff left jab that knocked him senseless and that set up the stoppage briefly after. Ocasio was also coming off two wins over Young who you rate highly.

 

You make a lot of unsupported assumptions.

 

Fair.

And yeah thats a good win. I have Holmes as a top 10 HW all time. And I've even defended his SOS in an argument with you.

 

Well then surely Holmes having the flu vs Weaver and a bicep injury vs Norton must of effected him mentally aswell ? especially vs Norton in his first world title fight he's coming into the fight not fully 100 percent with an injury.

If Foreman had mental issues that's on him if he can't get over a loss that's on him no excuses. You think every fighter that comes into a fight hasn't had personal issues or isn't mentally 100 percent ? Foreman had no illnesses, no legal troubles outside the ring, no family problems, so as i said it just sounds like copium to me to make excuses for Foreman losing.

Ali was a big underdog vs Foreman and Foreman was considered in his prime. You keep making these excuses for Foreman but there isn't any he just lost in his prime convincingly end of.

Foreman had stamina issues in his 1st career which is why Foreman was dead tired vs Young and got dropped by him late on aswell who wasn't a noted puncher. So it's not too hard to fathom why an exhausted Foreman got stopped by Ali who may not be a huge puncher but he has respectable power as his stoppages over Bonavena, Lyle, show.

Foreman also accused Stewart of having loaded gloves when he got beat up by him in the later rounds and made his face look like an alien the poison theory is just like the previous excuse nonsense.

So if the number 1 Heavyweight beats the number 2 Heavyweight convincingly or forgetting Heavyweight just any weightclass there always has to be an asterisk over it are you for real ? so we don't take into account the stylistic issue or anything else there has to always be an asterisk ? that's a baffling take.

Well i see alot of people on this forum say "Foreman was mentally broken after the Ali loss" and not many give Young alot of credit for the win.

But you're also not taking into account Holmes was consistently fighting against ranked opposition for 7 years up until his mid 30s so of course you will see more struggles overall Holmes was past his prime between 83-85. Foreman fought far less ranked opposition in his prime and you never see him consistently fighting ranked opposition plus he retired at age 28.