Larry Holmes the H2H goat?

Arrange it then lad.

 

Some of the shite you come out with you sound like Meth addict.

 

Well you think and articulate like a drug addict.

 

H2H and Prime for prime…. Steward trained Wladimir and Lewis >>> Holmes

 

Oh dear god no. The H2H GOAT doesn't struggle with Renaldo Snipes and Mike Weaver, or lose to a LHW. Norton and Witherspoon were either-way fights.

He as a good champ who prolonged his reighn through cherry-picking and ducking.

 

I just remember Tyson beating him up with ease and not taking a punch.
Holmes was old, nearing 40 or whatever but if he was so great, come on.
Compare that to Wlad who past 40 was extremely competitive with prime joshie and could have won. He wasn't just smashed to pieces.
And Wlad that age would probably have KO'd Tyson.

 

It’s Mike Tyson by a country mile. Bar having 2 uncharacteristically bad rounds against a washed up Pinklon and maybe giving away 2 or 3 to Tucker, he literally won every round in his prime Berbick to Bruno reign. And he knocked them silly too. Berbick in 2, Tubbs in 2, Holmes in 4, Spinks in 1, Bruno in 5, Williams in 1. That level of domination is unheard of.

Holmes whilst great got some very generous decisions and was all over the shop against Snipes Shavers etc. People chalk these knockdowns to Holmes losing focus, but actually it’s because he sticks his chin up, a basic mistake. He didn’t get waxed by Tyson solely because of age, but because Holmes did what Holmes always did, walk onto some massive right hand , get hurt and flap around and stick his chin up. Tyson always knocks Larry out in my book.

And Holmes got a total gift against Norton too. Whilst having a tough time with Norton is no disgrace, it’s the difference between a big hitter and Holmes. Holmes was an average hitter, so could not put the weak chinned Norton away. Bowe Lewis Tyson Foreman etc plus maybe W Klit (if Steward asks him to jump on Norton) will chin Norton early 100/100, just punch holes through him.

Ali is probably a better shout than Holmes because I thought a 1976 Ali performed about as well against Norton as prime Holmes did. I’m not exactly sure why, because I think Holmes is definitely a superior boxer to Ali. Much better jab, slightly faster hands, better ring IQ and punch selection on passer makes Holmes better. But Ali was probably better at spoiling than Holmes was and was naturally bigger, stronger and had that freakish chin and endurance to even it out.

Sometimes I think 60s Ali is a bit overrated though. His footwork is fancy, but he’s never really in a good position to punch when he’s skipping round. He has a pretty limited punch selection too. His jab is ludicrously overrated, often a flicker with little snap to it. I think Wlad Klit Lewis Bowe and Holmes coming after Ali all had better jabs. His straight right was pretty special though. I think Ali was really fast of hand and threw good combinations, but they weren’t really thrown with correct punching form so didn’t really have much power. Joe Louis threw better combinations than Ali. So did Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe. And 60s Ali never really faced a live body imo save for Liston 1 which was close, so 60s Ali H2H largely depends on the 60s version being a better version of 70s Ali. Hard to say. I wish prime Frazier could have fought 60s Ali. It’s also interesting to question Ali facing bigger men too, because he always had the size advantage throughout his career. Logically, the Fury fight is definitely proof that Wlad wouldn’t win and I feel Lewis and Bowe were plodding at times, but I kind of wonder what would happen if the trainers had these big men throw 30+ jabs a round against Ali. Liston was hustling Ali a bit off the jab even though it wasn’t scoring and I had that fight even and it would’ve been very interesting to see who won over the distance.

 

Yes, Holmes is the H2H ATG. He's at worst a 50/50 fight with a few greats and better with al the rest, can't say that about anyone else.

 

Larry Holmes was a great fighter and he proved even when he was past it he had the ability to compete at world level. I still have to rank prime Ali (pre-prison, post Liston) and Lewis with Steward in his corner higher, but Holmes is the kind of guy who could have beaten anyone in history.

 

As good as he was, no. I don’t think it’s fair to claim this when there’s men like Lewis who aren’t far from Holmes in terms of skill, but also have size and ko power to go with it. Thing with Holmes is he was fairly one dimensional in a way. I’ve been on a Holmes marathon before and at times it feels like I’m watching the same fight over and over. It was always just jab back up, jab cross back up, jab cross left hook back up again. It worked most of the time, but there were a few guys who exploited this in his prime.

 

Hard to consider him the h2h GOAT when someone like Vitali Klitschko for example wouldve brutalised him. Vitali may not have the resume, but h2h he would’ve been way too strong and destructive for Holmes.

 

How Vitali would brutalise Holmes if he couldn't brutalise Kevin Johnson or Vaughn Bean?