Larry Holmes, The Thread.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Sep 1, 2019.


Who Beats a Prime Larry Holmes?

  1. Muhammad Ali

    76.0%
  2. Joe Louis

    32.0%
  3. Lennox Lewis

    40.0%
  4. Rocky Marciano

    8.0%
  5. George Foreman

    32.0%
  6. Joe Frazier

    56.0%
  7. Sonny Liston

    20.0%
  8. Mike Tyson

    44.0%
  9. None of the Above

    8.0%
  10. Other (state who)

    16.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    All respect Mendoza (you're a very knowledgeable member here imo), but Ali had a better left hook (as much as it pains me to say it).

    Larry's left hook mostly served to be pretty much there, at best knocking his opponents off-balance. There isn't a single fight where Larry's hook was ever particularly fight-changing, try watching the Lyle fight and say the same thing about Ali.
     
  2. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Mendoza, like most of his thoughts, is screwed up.

    Ali slapped with no punches. His hook was thrown perfectly and thrown perfectly in combination. Watch his bout with Bonevena as to what his hook could do. Also he raked Frazier with the punch in Manila staggering him several times.

    Holmes always looked awkward throwing his hook and he never threw his hook in proper form. A left hook in reality is an inside- out punch if thrown properly. Not a wide looping blow. It should be an ultra short punch.

    There is no poster on here who is as continually wrong as you.
     
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  3. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I partly agree with all this (I most take issue with the thoughts on @Mendoza ).

    I also don't agree with Holmes always looking awkward throwing the punch, he was quite capable of shortening it up and making it look nice and tight. The problem is, Larry had a fault of sometimes not bending forward at the waist when he threw power punches (it's perhaps the main reason he was never a great puncher). The left hook was where this was most evident: but not only was he pretty straight up when he threw it, he rarely stepped in or even did a full hip oscillation when he threw it. He did usually snap it though, which made it at least present during combinations.
     
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  4. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You need to watch Ali Frazier 3 again. It was a brilliantly fought bout and Ali never looked sharper in THE bout where he proved to all boxing historians that he was truly an ATG. He was in the ring with a perfectly trained DETERMINED No 1 challenger and pulled from somewhere victory in a fight that looked like he was going to lose. Ali looked magnificent in this bout as did Frazier. Ali himself rated this performance his best from Foreman on.
     
  5. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It absolutely was his best since Foreman. But it wasn't Ali at his best imo (neither was anything after the 60s).

    Ali's best during the 70s was the FOTC and (to a lesser degree) the Foreman. The TiM was just as much testament to Joe's decline in fighting skills (though his heart was one hundred percent) as it was to the flashes-of-greatness Ali displayed. I certainly don't see the Ali of even, say, the first round against Foreman in the TiM. Watch that round, or even the whole Foreman fight again to see what I mean. That wasn't TiM Ali. Better.

    But hey, this is all just my opinion, and yours regarding the subject have some validity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  6. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I’ve watched both fights dozens of times.

    Ali stated himself that Frazier 3 was his best fight/effort from Foreman onwards. He actually did not rate his performance vs Foreman that highly. From memory he gave himself a 3 out of five for his bout with Foreman and a 4.5 out of 5 for Frazier 3.

    Also “the uppercut” Foreman threw in round 1 almost landed but missed.
     
  7. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Then you forget the uppercut that came later. Even Ali (in his book) mentioned it almost took his head off, and was the closest he came to getting knocked out in that fight.

    I'm more inclined to agree with you now about TiM...in all regards except brainpower. The Ali that fought Foreman thought both faster and better tactically than against Frazier III.

    Or maybe I'm just tired of debating lol. I'm surprised you forgot about that uppercut later in the fight, it was one of the few shots Foreman landed flush to the head during that fight (of course, landing to the body was something Foreman did quite a bit of).
     
  8. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I agree Holmes left hook was never a factor in his fights whereas Ali's was coordinated and thrown effortlessly.
    Hooks however do not have to be short and compact ala Dempsey and Walcott.Conventional wisdom says the elbow should be kept close to the body when throwing the punch but several renowned hookers have thrown long left hooks Fernandez,Lausse and a great left hooker from an earlier age ,Charley White threw the punch in various guises . Two fight ending left hooks which were not "ultra short punches" Curry koing McCrory .




    Curry being ko'd in turn by McCallum.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  9. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ali was not at his best in Manila and no one should seriously entertain the idea that he was.
     
  10. Fuzzykat

    Fuzzykat New Member Full Member

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    Of those on the original list, I think Louis, Ali, Foreman and Frazier might have beaten Holmes. But it's really hard to say. Holmes, unfortunately, just missed out on the Ali era which included some of the guys mentioned and Liston early on. Not his fault that he didn't get a chance to fight these guys in their prime.
     
  11. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Ali could hurt you with his lefthook. I'm trying to think of a bout that Larry used it to that effect. Maybe he did but I don't recall.
     
  12. ChrisJS

    ChrisJS Active Member Full Member

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    Holmes mostly had it all. Probably not having crushing power made some fights much closer than they should be. As isolated mythical matches all the guys he fought you’d favor him big but he had troubles with like Williams, Snipes, Smith but he got them out. The Witherspoon fight was razor thin. Maybe he’d have pulled away if it was 15 rounds.

    He was very consistent, took his craft seriously and was highly skilled and moved good. I think Frazier pre-Foreman probably gets him because Holmes probably doesn’t have the power to keep Frazier off. Frazier was as tough mentally as they came so that’s a hard out.
     
  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Ali had a slapping type of hook. You have no idea of what you are saying, and by no means did Ali look sharp vs. Bonevena. The fight was too close. The AP, for example, had Ali ahead 7-6-1.

    Ali was head hunter. Holmes was far more versatile in attack. He threw body punches and could in-fight. No debates there.

    If Ali had a hook, his fights with Frazier would have been much easier, and he'd have something extra on Norton.
     
  14. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ali looked crap against Bonavena, but the hooks that put Oscar away were perfect! Ali had a much more effective hook than Holmes ,this isn't even debateable!
     
  15. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    How did the Bonevena fight end?
     


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