Larry Holmes - There Should Be a Size limit On The Heavyweight s!

Crazy idea: Why not revolutionize all heavy classes from LHW upwards and add 2 new ones with reasonable gaps? How about a rule that takes a semi-rigid frame for height + weight into account. So if you exceed the height limit your weight is limited to 185 / 215 / 225 / 240. If you are shorter you can carry some extra pounds. lets say it's like 2 pounds for 1 inch.
As an example 4 classes: (all real weight, no cheating, no cook off)

Standard values:
1. new LHW: 6' 0" - 185 lbs (Marciano, Patterson)
2. "jr. HW" / "small HW": 6' 2" - 215 lbs (Louis, Schmeling, Young, Tyson, Liston, Norton) *example below
3. regular HW: 6' 3" – 225 (Foreman, Holmes, Ali, Wilder)
4. Super Heavy: 6' 5": - 240 lbs (Joshua, Lewis, Klitschko, Bowe)
5. Unlimited: Or maybe limit it to 260 lbs just to protect Fury from diabetes^^

*So Mike Tyson is a small Heavyweight: 5' 10" and mostly 218 - 220 lbs in his prime. Because Tyson is 4 inches below the 2. class height limit, he is allowed to weigh up to 8 lbs extra. In theory: 223 lbs Mike Tyson and the light version of Wilder (Ortiz 1, Fury 1, Helenius) can fight for the title in class 2.

Complicated stuff but this will lead to more exciting setups. We will see different body types and different styles.

 

No it’s not.

same divisions as we have now. Same champions as we have now. Just called what they should be.

just as they are in the Amateurs.

would only take a telephone call.

 

The size is interesting, but looking through this, other points come up.

1---Age

Of the top 25 heavyweights in this list, only 4 are under thirty, with Daniel Dubois at 25 the youngest. 12 are 30-34. 7 are 35-39. 2 are over 40. In comparison, the average age of an NFL player is 26. The average age of an NBA player is 26. The average age of a major league baseball player is 27. The average age of an NHL player is 27. These top 25 heavyweights average 33.5 years old. The top 12 average 35 years old!

I think it reasonable to wonder why our heavyweights are so old.

2---number of professional fights

Rocky Marciano had a relatively short career, being a pro only 7-8 years. He had 49 pro fights. None of these 50 heavyweights have had that many despite their ages.

On the age thing, should we start looking at boxing history differently. There was a recent thread knocking Marciano's opposition. Ezzard Charles was dismissed as an old man. He was 32 for the first Marciano fight, younger than 10 of the top 12 heavyweights today. Does this weaken the beating old men argument against the likes of Marciano or Jeffries? Does it weaken the argument for giving a pass to the likes of Dempsey or Johnson for their title losing defeats? Dempsey was only 31 when Tunney beat him.

On the number of pro fights, what does the relatively few fights for modern fighters tell us, if anything?

As for your weight point, yes I think it silly to have so many weight classes at lighter weights and then throw everyone over 200 lbs. into the same class. I would advocate at least two new classes above 200 lbs.

*The other sport I follow closely is the NFL. While there are older guys playing, for example, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers at quarterback, there are also a slew of young up and comers at the same position--Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Jackson, etc. This doesn't seem to be true in this list of heavyweights.

 

Usyk is one of the best 2 HWs in the world. So, if a career CW is big enough to succeed at the highest level at HW, why is a weight division higher than the current CW limit required?

 

If a boxer has an ideal natural (I.e., typically below 10% BF with lean, functional muscle mass) weight of 201-220lbs they have 3 choices:

1) Dehydrate to CW and rehydrate to their natural fighting weight. Okolie must be 220lbs+ in the ring, so a sub 220lbs fighter has this option. Examples - I suspect 95%+ boxers who compete at world level at CW are between 201-225lbs in the ring.
2) Fight at their natural fighting weight at HW. Examples of HW boxers who have had varying levels of success recently at world level whilst weighing <220lbs - Chambers, Byrd, Haye, Wilder, Uysk.
3) Bulk up to >220lbs. Examples of fighters with natural ideal fighting weights of sub 220lbs bulking up to >220lbs and having success of varing levels at world level - Chagaev, Povetkin, Ruiz, Wilder (again)

The premise that a fighter with a natural fighting weight of between 201 and 220lbs have no options to compete at world level, is demonstrably erroneous.

 

I’ll say this. A fighter who is 6’1” 220 lbs is at a severe disadvantage against a guy who’s 6’8” 260lbs. And yes I realize we’ve seen plenty of instances where one heavyweight beat another who had a huge size advantage. But the occasional exception to the rule does not dictate the norm.

 

All other factors between those 2 x fighters being equal, I agree.

What I disagree with, is that boxers with natural fighting weights of c.201-220lbs cant compete at world level. If they're good enough, and there are plenty of examples as per my post above yours, they can.

 

I agree to an extent. But if we’re dealing with two talented and well trained fighters, one of whom is a more traditional sized heavy vs a super heavy then the latter of the two is more likely to win. Again we’re talking all things being equal except for size.

 

I agree.

There are many variables that determine the outcome of a fight. We agree that the relative size of the 2 boxers is one of them.

That's no justification to introduce a new weight division, though. I'd agree a new weight division was necessary if it was unrealistic for boxers around a certain size to compete at world level. You name me any weight you want between 105 and 280lbs, and I'll give you multiple examples of boxers who are around that natural fighting weight and who have had recent success at world level. Therefore, the only impact of introducing another weight division between CW and the open class, would be to further dilute the talent and further cultivate an environment where fighters can become a champion without fighting the best opposition. Honestly, it's a bad idea.

 

Yeah I can see that. And Usyk has proven that a 6’3” 220 lb guy can still become a champ

 

Exactly. And to be pedantic, hes probably proven that a guy with a natural fighting weight of around 205-210lbs can both - 1) Dehydrate and become arguably the greatest CW of all time; and 2) Comfortably bulk up to 220lbs whilst retaining enough mobility, speed and stamina to become clearly 1 of the best 2 HWs in the world.

If hes simultaneously small enough to succeed at world level at CW and big enough to do the same at HW, then why do we need another pointless inbetweener division? (Question not aimed at you Mr. Magoo)

 

I agree. We don’t need another weight class. But it is reasonable to assume that most of the future champions going forward are going to be some very large men. In fact over the last 20 years most of them have been

 

The best heavyweight in the world, is a 6' 7-9'' freak of nature.

The second best heavyweight in the world, is a great former cruiserweight, who inhabited some lower weight classes as an amateur.

Incidentally, the better cruiserweights seem to hold their own well, unless they meet the top three in the heavyweight division.

No need to split the talent pool further.

 

The problem with the reply is many of the top prospects in the division and currently " ranked " between spots 26-100 that are under 30 year old. They are in general the future of the division, while the guys over 35 are not.

Marciano fought long ago,and didn't meet anyone good for while and had few amateur fights. Today many fighters typically have 50+ amateur fights. The game has changed and I tell you heavyweights are so darn big even in the amateurs that you are very unlikely to see a 19 year or even 20 year old do well vs. grown men. Sort of like a true Freshman in NCAA football, they just are not physically ready yet.

Old timers did not have access to many modern day medical drugs and surgeries, so old for them generally happened around 35 or sooner depending on the ware and tear. You can usually see a decile in speed today at age 35. You just can not compare the times.

I agree a new weight class is needed.