Larry Holmes Vs. Joe Frazier (after losing the title)

I'm dubious Holmes was experienced enough to beat Frazier anytime up to and including his retirement in 76. He only put himself solidly on the map in 78 with a win over Shavers. He was brought along slowly.

 

Frazier wins every time until 1976.

while Holmes did not have enough experience in 1976, Frazier legs were shot after Manila. He was resting on the ropes vs Foreman at times from memory.

73, 74 Frazier gives Holmes a brutal body beating and beats him by decision.

75 Manila Frazier beats him too by a hard fought decision.

76 Frazier does not have the legs to corner him and loses a decision.

 

I agree. I think the post Manilla Frazier that fought Foreman still had enough teeth to be too much for Holmes at that point.

Frazier had gotten a little heavy for him against Foreman but I think that was by design so he could better handle Foreman's strength. Holmes was still fighting journeymen types at that point. I don't think Holmes would have had a chance in hell against the Frazier that fought Ali in Manilla. That was a snarling beast of a pressure fighter and I don't think Larry at that point had the physical strength to hold of that Frazier.

 

That sums it up further. We aren't relying on Frazier's being superb so much as Holmes was very inexperienced. Holmes wasn't fighting contenders until 1978 when he came on in a big hurry. Frazier was still considered a top 4 heavyweight in 76.

 

1973 Frazier by stoppage
1974 Frazier by decision or stoppage
1975 Frazier by decision
1976 Holmes by decision

 

I'm sure Joe thought about coming back to fight Holmes. His failed comeback attempt vs Jumbo Cummings could have been a test -- to see if he had enough left for a run at Holmes' title.

 

Thank God he didn't fight Holmes after the Cummings fight. Holmes would have destroyed him. It's been awhile since I watched Frazier's last fight but from what I recall he took a beating and Holmes wasn't the type to take it easy on a guy.

 

I agree. Larry was too young even in 76.

I don't see even prime Holmes beating any Frazier incarnation from Ellis right into the FOTC. After that (up to and including the second Foreman fight), I see Holmes winning tough decisions.

 

I agree any time up through Manila Frazier clobbers Holmes. After that Larry will have gotten fully developed, plus Frazier may have bragged about damaging Ali in Manila but he wasn’t the same afterward either. Ali beat the living dog caca out of him that day.

 

If we're talking about Larry in 73-74 vs. that same Frazier then Frazier. Larry was a novice that had literally just started his career. Now if we're talking about Larry once he hit his stride against that Frazier, Holmes definitely. Those are two different Holmes'

 

Frazier is the ONLY guy that Holmes has ever said would fairly beat him. Everyone else is a bum, Larry would whoop them, blah blah, but Frazier? Nope. Nothing but respect.

Holmes worked for Frazier as a sparring partner for a time, and I strongly suspect that Frazier just beat the hell out of him every time, leading to Larry's impression of him.

So, I'll take Holmes at his own word. He doesn't beat Frazier. Especially not a green version of Holmes.

 

I agree that Holmes was brought along slowly.

However, IIRC, some magazines as at the time were claiming that Holmes was a promising up and comer who was being avoided.

Maybe that was just Holmes himself and/or his team being directly quoted. Lol.

Anyway, again, I agree that Holmes was simply brought through carefully - not so much avoided, if at all.

Holmes vs Roy Williams was a good fight. It was also interesting to see how much trouble Larry had with a decently applied jab coming back at him.

Strangely, Williams seemed to almost completely forget about his jab when he fought Earnie Shavers.

 

Frazier's style gives him a definite advantage over Holmes.