Larry Holmes vs John Tate, 1980.

I think it would have been most competitive with Holmes taking over late to stop Tate in a reasonably close tussle. Tate could box damn well for a short time, and Holmes didn't have Weavers one punch power. He'd wear him down tho, like he did most guys.

 

I think it'd be a good fight: not in the sense of a blood-and-guts war, but in terms of two busy and technically sound boxers who were both willing to press the action. I think Holmes would win the battle of the jabs to at least break even in the first five rounds, and then his superior stamina would tell in the last 5 rounds.

Holmes by UD. Tate would make a good show of it, because before he began to fall apart Tate was a very, VERY good prospect.

 

Agreed, if we're looking at 10 rounds a Holmes decision, and if they fought when they were looking at in a unification bout (Tate got beaten by Weaver to stifle the liklihood) Holmes by late stoppage tho Tate still MIGHT survive.

 

Holmes UD 15 Tate

Big John did not have the sort of firepower necessary to trouble Larry, nor did he have the speed to compete with Holmes.

 

I don't think Holmes would stop Tate. Holmes's stoppages tended to take place when his opponent dragged him into a brawl, and Holmes out-slugged them. I don't see that happening in this bout, given that wasn't Tate's modus operandi.

 

That's a great insight right there. You're probably right, it's likely a distance fight. I was envisioning Tate getting tired more than anything.

 

If you recall, Big John defeated both Knoetze and Coetzee by wearing them down. Many boxing experts at the time did not think that Tate could carry 240 pounds against Coetzee and win a 15 round championship match, but he proved the "experts" wrong.

Against Weaver, the fact is that Tate had won 13 of the 14 completed rounds, and should have taken a unanimous decision had he continued to smother Hercules against the ropes for the final round. (Mike just didn't have the mobility to sidestep. He was only effective coming forward.) Overlooked in the wake of Big John's devastating losses is the fact that he was an extremely well conditioned and mobile performer while an undefeated professional. Although he was doing all the work against Weaver, he was also moving extremely well during the championship rounds. Tate also danced a most energetic knee pumping celebratory jig after the 15 rounds with Coetzee, when the decision making him WBA Champion was announced. His conditioning had to be phenomenal to be able to do that. (Contrast that behaviour with how exhausted Holmes was after Norton, or Ali was after Manila.)

My chief problem with Tate, even at his very best, was that he seemed to be as slow as he was big. John actually managed to appear slow when he roared out of his corner to snuff out Bobick with those four right hand leads. (Has any prominent heavyweight ever been a bigger sucker for a right than Bobick?) In terms of size, conditioning and speed, Tate reminded me somewhat of Carnera, although with much better boxing skills.

So the jist of all this is that I too envision a 15 round decision, but not because Tate gets tired. I don't believe fatigue would have been any kind of factor between these two. Big John simply would not have been able to match Larry's speed throughout, probably making it as nearly one-sided a points verdict in favor of Holmes as Tate should have produced against Weaver.

 

No offense, Duodenum, but I think you underrate Carnera a bit, I mean, he defeated so many very good/ great fighters, the best example about his skills is his UD against Loughran, one of the best pure boxers ever. OK, he had a size advantage, but for Tommy it wasn´t usually a problem, like he showed against other big fighters like Impelletiere, Campolo, Cobb, etc... my point is, although I agree that Tate had pretty good skills, that I wouldn´t surely say that "Big John" had better skills than Primo...

 

If you check some of my other posts concerning Carnera, you will discover that I hold him in high regard. He won every round against Max Baer where he stayed on his feet, decisioned King Levinski and Paulino Uzcudun twice, and defeated the taller Victorio Campolo twice. (Primo took Campolo out in two rounds of their first bout, on a card that was a benefit for Jewish charities! Carnera was no more of an Axis stooge than Schmeling was. Like Max, he simply did what was necessary to keep going.)

He took out Ray Impelletiere quite handily, proving that his success wasn't solely contingent on having a reach advantage. When he won the title from Sharkey, he nearly decked Sailor Jack with a nasty left hook in a round prior to actually knocking out the champion. (Viewing the entire match makes it clear that Carnera won in legitimate fashion. Only the ropes prevented Sharkey from going down when that earlier hook connected. Today, that would be ruled a knockdown. The way Primo pivots his right foot towards Sharkey as he delivers that final right uppercut is textbook.)

Primo decisioned Jimmy Maloney despite having sustained a fractured rib two weeks earlier. He immediately bounced up from what Gene Tunney described as one of the two hardest right hands delivered in the first 50 years of the century. (The first punch Baer floored him with. The other one Tunney mentioned was the right hand Louis knocked out Braddock with, but the Bomber floored Uzcudun with a harder one.)

If Carnera had not sustained an ankle fracture from getting floored in that opening stanza (and causing Primo to be hospitalized afterwards, where Baer paid him a visit), I'm not sold on the idea that Maxie would have won a decision over him. (When examining and enhancing the movie footage of Baer/Carnera closely, the ankle swelling becomes apparent in the later rounds. This is much less apparent in the youtube footage.)

Even in the first match with Sharkey, Carnera gave him fits with that pesky jab of his, and in the fourth round, had the presence of mind to drop to one knee and take the benefit of a full count after immediately springing up from a hellacious left hook (probably the hardest single punch ever delivered by Sharkey on film). Unlike Quarry against Chuvalo, Carnera did not lose the referee's count. (But when Primo went back down to one knee, the referee mistakenly began the count all over again, making Sharkey go ballistic at the ref, and buying Carnera even more time.)

Tommy Loughran claimed "The big bum kept stepping on my feet!," a shrewd tactic on Primo's part to thwart Loughran's mobility. As big as Carnera's feet were, we don't see him tripping over himself. Within the limits of his size and speed, he was well-coordinated. It is not lost on me that Tommy tuned up for Primo by decisioning Impelletiere, had earlier decisioned Campolo, and would outpoint Impelletiere two more times after losing to Carnera.

Against Baer, Carnera was able to repeatedly do something Jack Johnson unsuccessfully attempted when Willard knocked him out. Lil' Artha tried to grab onto Willard in a vain attempt to avoid going down. (Fitzsimmons also tried and failed to do this when Corbett floored him, but Fitz may have bought just enough time to avoid being counted out.) However, Carnera had the alertness and strength to repeatedly pull Baer down with him after Maxie scored some knockdown blows, buying Primo valuable time in a situation where there was no mandatory eight count. As hard as Baer punched Carnera, he never came close to putting Da Preem down for the count, and neither did Joe Louis. I think Carnera's historical standing would be considerably higher than it has been, if he'd still been on his feet at the end of 15 rounds against Baer.

Carnera used his reach and jab extremely well, much, much better than Buddy Baer. As big as he was, Primo's physical conditioning was always beyond reproach. Like Floyd Patterson, he could be dropped, but also like Floyd, good luck keeping him down!

Primo Carnera may not have been a "great" heavyweight, but he was a good champion, the only HW champion to defend that title more than twice within a year's time, between Jack Johnson in 1910, and Joe Louis in 1938. He also defended against two worthy challengers in Loughran and Uzcudun (who both held wins over his third challenger, Baer). Carnera took the title to Rome, Italy, and Miami, Florida. He was a true globetrotter, boxing in North America, South America, Eastern and Western Europe, as well as the U.K. HW champions from the U.S. have usually confined their title matches to stateside. (Although I don't blame Larry Holmes for defending the title where the money was, the fact that Ali traveled the globe, where as Larry defended the title almost exclusively at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, helped guarantee that his reputation would suffer in the eyes of the world, when measured against his predecessor.)

Head to head, Carnera was far more resilient and experienced than Tate, but John had that amateur pedigree, and unlike Carnera (who pretty much had to learn as he went along, and developed his level of competence through sheer number of performances), Tate was extremely well schooled technically. Coetzee was a big, fast, hard hitting and skillful boxer, and Weaver had just dominated LeDoux with his jab over 12 rounds when Tate nearly shut Hercules out. After Tate lost the title, he also outboxed the talented and experienced journeyman/cutie Leroy Caldwell (who was then performing as well as he ever did during his career).

Tate wasn't nearly as smart as Carnera was, but for better or worse, he carried out his corner's instructions. (With disastrous consequences against Weaver. Ace Miller should have been shot for telling Tate to give ground to Hercules in that final stanza. That's not boxing to win, that's boxing not to lose. When something is working, stick with it! Along with the overconfident and inappropriately calm behavior of the Petronelli brothers in Hagler's corner against SRL, the way Tate's handlers mislead him is one of the most miserable examples of poor cornerwork I've ever come across.)

If Carnera went against Tate, I would expect John to get the decision. I think he had a bigger punch than Carnera, pressured more aggressively, and could vary his attack a little better. I don't expect that there would be any knockdowns. My belief is that Tate would be advancing, and Carnera would oblige him, using his jab as he backed away. My supposition that Tate would decision Carnera over 15 rounds is not strongly held, but Tate had far more skill and experience (including as an amateur) in my estimation than Campolo or Impelletiere. Primo had some early difficulty with the novice Impelletiere, and never faced somebody of that size with Tate's skill and strength.

Primo was certainly tougher than Tate. I think John was faster, and was straighter with his punches. Tate was somewhat mechanical, but I believe his punch delivery system was superior to Carnera's. It's also my opinion he was a little faster, and a bit more skilled than Primo defensively. Carnera was certainly rougher, and wouldn't hesitate to bend the rules when the situation called for it. However, Primo would not enjoy his usual strength advantage, at least not to the extent he normally did. (Remember, Tate completely manhandled Weaver physically.)

Carnera went 4-1 in five consecutive bouts against arguably the five best heavyweights in the world at that time. It was not his fault that Ernie Schaaf chose to leave his hospital bed sick with the flu, to honor a stupid contract. He legitimately avenged a 15 round decision loss against a defending champion (who battered the hell out of Carnera in that earlier meeting, but failed to finish Primo off within 15 rounds, despite his best efforts), then legitimately decisioned two challengers who had gotten the best of his eventual conquerer for the title, then lost that title while boxing over ten rounds on a fractured ankle, yet continued to bounce up knockdown blows delivered by one of the hardest punching heavyweight champions in boxing history. Finally, he gave Louis some early trouble with his jab before Joe dropped him three times with hellacious shots, but couldn't keep him down.

If all this means I underestimate Carnera, I plead guilty as charged.

Whatever the case, the words of Carnera's critics can now be measured by everybody against the actual footage of his matches on services like youtube.

Carnera is far more worthy of IBHOF induction than some of the clowns they've voted in so far. (Hell, considering some of the company Primo would have there, maybe it would be more of a dishonor to induct him.)

 

I must repeat myself, but I must say, great post again. You gleam again with great boxing knowledge. I´m really sorry for my false step, for me it didn´t sound like you underrate Primo a bit, but now I was disabused. I completely agree with your post, in every single area. With the IBHOF, well, for me this organisation is getting more a joke and more. Fighters like Papp or Willard are in, but fighters like in our example Carnera aren´t...

 

Holmes was in his prime ,he would have too many tools for the plodding Tate who also didnt take a shot too well,a series of right s get Tate in difficulty around the 8th and Larry closes the show.

 

Well Luigi, I'm happy we've settled on the same page.

The IBHOF is a great place to view artifacts (such as the huge cast of Primo's fist, and the tiny one of Henry Armstrong's) , and Induction Weekend is a great opportunity to mingle with prominent members of the boxing fraternity (Aaron Pryor is an especially terrific character to be around), but yeah, the IBHOF has made far too many marketing based inductions, rather than selecting enshrinees with posterity as their primary consideration.

Rather than go off on another rant, I'd better close myself off here (as entertaining as such an outburst might be to some). The whole IBHOF issue infuriates me.

 

Fair enough mate, maybe my recollection of Tate tiring vs Weaver is a little bit out of whack now.