Larry Holmes vs Rocky Marciano

Name me some recent great small heavyweights who had mediocre hand speed and zero foot speed.

 

There's more to greatness in fighters than just flashy handspeed. Marciano beat plenty of fast handed fighters

 

I spoke with Rocky's brother Peter he told me personally that Marciano would be a heavier man today that with modern training nutrition weightlifting he would come in at a rocksolid 205

 

Charles walcott and moore sure must be overrated to go 0-5 against a small very slow fighter

 

That Methuselah who never fought again, the lightheavy who wouldn't go .500 for the rest of his career and the perennial wannabe heavyweight?

Marciano's greatest talent was fighting in the right era.

 

If you wan't to get down to brass tacks, Marciano's opposition was better than Holmes's.

I mean who are the three best guys Holmes beat?

Shoot!

 

Yep because most heavyweight champions have no trouble sporting a 6-0 (5knockouts) record against hall of famers.

Most heavyweight champions had no problem sporting a 11-0 (10 knockouts) record against top 10 contenders

Most heavyweight champions had no problem facing there number one rated contender in a title defense 83% of the time

 

This is the old man Marciano had to beat to win the title

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i0hZKnQ07IE

Come on anyone could have thrown and landed that punch. Not impressive at all. Walcott was old so old..he must have been shhit

 

Ok,

So did Walcott have a KO ratio of 45% yes or no?

Did Moore have a KO ratio of 60% yes or no?

Did Moore KO more Light Heavies than Heavies yes or no?

Did Holmes have a KO ratio of 60% ( all bar the shouting ) fighting bigger, heavier men than Marciano, yes or no?

 

Archie Moore is rated number 4 in ring magazines all time top 100 punchers list. Larry did not make the top 100.

Archie Moore has 131 career knockouts..2nd most of all time.

Archie Moore went 22-1 with 19 knockouts against men above 200lb.

You tell me if you think Holmes was the bigger puncher

 

Jersey Joe Walcott rated number 63 on ring magazines top 100 punchers of all time list. Larry Holmes did not make the top 100.

 

Many ridiculous posts .. consistent though

Can't decide whether it is Marciano or Calzaghe that is the most absurdly overrated by the same handful of regulars among the tiny overall posting population that have spent multiple thousands of hours of their lives talking about athletes on the "Classic".

If Tyson (the best example of a short, no length, heavyweight) was coming in at 188 lbs he wouldn't be half the threat he was at 210 or 215. He wouldn't be backing up bigger men and he wouldn't be able to generate the power (force) needed to be effective.

A smaller athlete facing a larger one (as is only possible within the heavyweight division without an upper weight limitation) needs to be able to apply ample force or be fast as a rabbit running underfoot throwing scoring pot shots whenever possible (hit and not be hit to garner a points win - no matter how ugly it looks).

That's it. You either have incomparable speed such as RJJ versus a Ruiz or you are a small heavyweight that can generate the ample force.

Force is mass (weight) times acceleration (speed).

Tyson was short with no length but he had ENOUGH weight combined with good speed to generate ample or significant force.

Tua was another short heavyweight (with no length). He did not have the acceleration of Tyson but he had the mass. You can't be lacking in both areas and generate ample force.

The generation of that force is essential to successfully or repeatedly attack a larger opponent but the mass is also essential to withstand the ample force of your opponent.

It is the same reason you are not going to put ... pick someone with comparable mass to Marciano ... say Kovalev (as he is considered a quality fighter that is offensively minded) .. he comes in at 188 or 189 or 190 lbs. ... in with heavyweights. Kovalev is NOT going to be pushing bigger men with any modicum of athletic talent back, owning the center of the ring, and walking them down. He is going to be on his bike for most of the fight. He is not going to be "taking one to give one" either. At 188 pounds that just means you get attrited by your opponent's size advantage and greater durability and capability to absorb your smaller force generation.

So, why are some here so deluded?

Some examples of clown posts for both Spinks and Holmes versus Marciano at heavyweight:

"easy fight for Marciano, too strong for Spinks"
"Marciano by KO in a beat down of Michael Spinks..."
"Spinks, isn't keeping Marciano off him."
"And Holmes has to deal with an Animal for 15 rounds."
"perfect opponent for Rocky with his pressure and right hands....a copy of the Tyson-Holmes fight but Rocky picks up the pace about the 3rd rd and break Larry down."
"Holmes doesn't really have the mobility to stay away from Marciano, or the firepower to keep him off."
"Marciano might be the smaller man here, but he is ultimately the one carrying the big artillery, and it is Holmes who cannot afford to stand his ground."
"If Holmes tries to mix it up with Marciano, he is getting broken in half!"
etc.
etc.
etc.

Here let me spell it out ...

Spinks while moving up still was 6'2" and was 200 lbs for the first Holmes fight. His length gave him leverage. His acceleration is superior to Marciano's. He is not 5'10 188 lbs with no length and minimal SPEED/ACCELERATION. He was prime (29 years of age) fighting a past prime Holmes (nearly 36 years of age). You see AGE also matters. We'll come back to that ...

If we put Kovalev at 188 lbs in with ... let's pick some small heavyweights in mass but ones who have height/leverage/length .. say Cunningham or Haye ... as they both weigh in the low 200s ... Kov is not going to be backing them up. Get that? He WILL NOT be backing them up. They both may well use their movement to create angles and quickness of foot to set traps and their athleticism and lateral movement to hit and not be hit but they DO NOT HAVE TO. AT ANY POINT they can merely stand toe to toe and expect to get the better of it. They will have more MASS, better speed (by a long distance), which equates to superior force generation. If they trade shot for shot KOV goes DOWN. Simple as ... When the talent levels or athletic abilities are in range then size differentials dictate the probable result.

When Spinks moved up to face Holmes he was prime. He was physically younger. He had sufficient leverage from his length (76"), sufficient comparative speed because Holmes was so far from his prime, and just enough weight to generate adequate force to give shots and take or absorb Holmes' shots and be competitive. If you take away from any of the variables you get a different result.

All of this hyperbole about Marciano based upon wins over dross and some old and/or worn ATGs (very comparable to the Calzaghe story not surprisingly) is demonstrable of being clueless about the consequences and realities of physical age.

If you want to argue that because Marciano beat old men within range of Holmes' size while he was in his prime that he then beats another who is not handicapped by age but is also prime - WTF do you think your point is? You don't have an example of him successfully giving away five inches in height, while weighing 188 lbs against a 215 lb man with skills, overcoming a 13 inch length disadvantage, holding no speed or quickness advantage, for the illogical conclusion that he has "an easy fight", or he "controls the center ring", or he "breaks him in half". Wake up.

Just as Kovalev would be unable to enter the ring at 188 and push around two small heavyweights (in mass) like Cunningham and Haye weighing 205 to 210, Marciano would not be able to either. Why? Because Kov would be shorter by 3 inches, he would be twenty pounds lighter, he would be between 6 and 8 inches less in length and related leverage, he would be slower of foot and hand, and with less mass and less speed his vaunted power (force) against men his own size (i.e., other LHWs) would be comparatively negligible or negated. Both Cunningham and Haye generate surprising power because of their superior ACCELERATION that they can shake bigger heavyweights if they can land a clean shot. Their problem is that with less mass they can also be easily shook if the reverse occurs (i.e., if they are the smaller man in the ring facing a heavyweight with sufficient acceleration and greater mass).

SO, this misconception that Marciano would just be able to face much larger, heavier men, and send them struggling to survive for fifteen rounds because "he is an animal" is LAUGHABLE. His advantages against many of his opponents (a lot of them terrible talents) in his era is that they were similar in size or similar enough to him so his force generation meant something. His advantages against ALL of his best opponents is that they were FAR past their sell date. It doesn't matter that they were legitimately ranked. It doesn't matter that they were the best available at that time - even at their age or with their ring wear. When a YOUNGER PRIME athlete defeats an OLDER past their physical prime one that cannot be understated. To not know that means you were never an athlete in any sense yourself. While there is no one rule for all, there doesn't have to be. Use your own common sense if you have no real world application or athletic experience to fall back upon.

 

Maybe if they had been prime they would not have been 0-5?:think