Larry Holmes vs Rocky Marciano

I've never thought the term," not very good ,"applied to Marciano, imo he was the foremost over achiever.
Not very skilled yes.
I know who you are now,Charlie Zelenoff!:good

 

Marciano was a very skilled hwt. You cannot fight In that style and not be very skilled.

 

No he wasn't , and I have the opinions of Joe Louis ,Joe Walcott ,and Archie Moore to back me up on that point, plus that of a great trainer and astute judge of boxers in Manny Steward .and when Joe Frazier was compared to him he was offended and said he more closely resembled Henry Armstrong. So tell me Charlie, are they all wrong and you are right?
Many fighters have fought in that style ,and many of them have not been very skilled.

 

I have only one thing to say on Marciano vs Holmes: win or lose, Holmes would not make a crack about Rocky being unworthy to carry his jockstrap afterwards. This would be a bruising, bloody encounter. Marciano by late KO or Holmes on points. Percentage wise, I couldn't say.

 

I think there's a difference between skilled and slick. Marciano had to be skilled in some way or he would have been destroyed by the fighters he faced. He wasn't a face first catcher because with his lack of size he couldn't be; he'd never get inside.

I'm not saying he was silky smooth like Benitez, but he had a strange style that made him effective. I've watched the first Walcott fight countless times and the commentator says something like "Marciano's not easy to hit on the inside; he's all elbows". Also, Marciano countered Walcott at times and that's classic boxing:countering the counter puncher.

I think Marciano slugged because it was the most effective tactic for him, not because he couldn't box at all. As I said before, I favour Holmes, but I think Rocky is too good to just dismiss out of hand.

 

it was a 3-round fight and most felt Marciano won against Coley and I never said Marciano was a fast starter but he was not taken out on a stretcher like Holmes was 2X vs the 5"10 Nick Wells or did he (like Ali said purposely DQ'd (Holding) after getting dropped hard by a Bobick right hand)

Holmes got dropped hard by a 22 fight Snipes (who got dropped by Coetzee 2X in previous fight) and he was rocked and dropped by Shavers who was a poor finisher and this was proven against Stander,Quarry,Lyle,Stalling,Cobb,Mercado, Rondon and others.

Larry never proved he was not a sucker for right hands, Spinks right hand spanked him in fight 1 of Spinks 1st heavyweight fight and a green Tyson showed us the Larry never perfected the flaw of getting hit by them and I think this is the reason Larry refused to unify against- Weaver,Dokes,Page,Coetzee,Thomas,Tate because they were seasoned guys. The usual suspects of 10 fight-12 fight-13-14-15 fight guy that Holmes fought could not capitalize on this flaw and Kooney had one hand the left hook so Larry felt safe. I dont think anyone can deny that Larry gave up a title not to fight Greg Page because Greg had a sneaky, tricky and awkward right hand

As far as Tua, Lewis tagged him and Tua did not push after that and Lewis was content to keep the distance and Tua at bay. I dont put Tua in the class of great chins because he did not fight too many pin-point punchers, Savon was and caught him coming in, bottom line Tua could be KO'd ...When Tua fought Byrd he was outclassed by the smaller man who had some pin-point ability but not much of a punch. A guy like Walcott, Charles,Moore may have done a Savon on Tua (who is overrated ) I do not call Tua a glass jaw but he could be KO'd by an accurate pin-point punch as Savon showed us.

Someone told me once you can build the body Big and muscled but there is nothing you can do for the chin short of keeping it safe

 

We disagree on many aspects of this matchup, but we both agree we would be buying tickets for it!
Tony Zale said in his experience there were not so many glass chins as glass hearts.

 

Nicely put rib. All these fighters had derogatory comments concerning Rocky prior to the fight. all were knocked out.

 

More spin here than on an east Oakland Impala...

So, Holmes is now chinny because he got dropped twice in his prime and went on to emphatically beat both of the droppers? And should we ignore that both those guys shot from the outside with reaches over 77 inches. Inside, Holmes is an octopus and stifles exactly the kind of punches Marciano threw best.

Or are we taking the 38 year old Holmes' performance against Tyson as the best blueprint for his abilities and shortcomings?

How about the fact that Marciano was bloodied and cut and bruised in most of his fights. If the Marciano/Charles fight had been 2 decades later, it likely would have been stopped and awarded to Ezzard. Despite what some may think, Holmes was a very damaging puncher, both because his punch selection and accuracy. What's Marciano's face going to look like after half a dozen rounds of this sort of accrual?

 

No credible poster is saying Holmes had a bad chin. Technically he was always open for right hands over that jab he dropped. Those he fought did not have the ability to exploit this defect. Absolutely and positively Marciano will exploit this to his advantage. It would have been a great fight between two ATG fighters.

 

Wrong again! Both Moore and Louis made those comments
AFTER the fights.

 

Marciano with shortest reach of any heavyweight champion would succeed where others failed?

Question1 .

Why?
And the answer has to be better than because he was Marciano. That mythical beast who only had to land his Suzie Q to see his opponent fall senseless to the canvas.

Question2.

If the above is correct,what happened when Rocky fought this man?
Willis Applegate. Won 1 of last of last 11.:think

1951-04-30

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Rocky Marciano

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Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island, USA L UD 10 10
referee: Dolly Searle
This was a bruising, crowd-pleasing battle. Marciano won handily enough but failed to even knock down his opponent, who had fought only twice in the previous two years. Applegate's best round was the third, which the referee also took from Marciano because of a low punch. Red landed plenty of good punches, typically in the early parts of rounds, but Marciano almost always came back later to take the play away. Marciano's best round was the sixth. The attendance was 4167 and the gross gate was $7,6l6.
1951-04-07

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Omelio Agramonte

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Palacio de Deportes, Havana, Cuba L UD 10 10
Applegate down for an 8-count in the 10th round
1951-01-03

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Marty Marshall

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Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, USA L PTS 6 6
1950-02-01

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Jimmy Bivins

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Miami Stadium, Miami, Florida, USA L PTS 10 10
1948-08-09

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Lee Oma

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Queensboro Arena, Long Island City, Queens, New York, USA L TKO 9 10
referee: Ruby Goldstein
1948-07-20

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Bill Weinberg

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Queensboro Arena, Long Island City, Queens, New York, USA L SD 10 10
Bout stopped due to heavy rain after three rounds; they fought the final seven the next day.
1948-06-29

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Billy Fox

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Twin City Bowl, Elizabeth, New Jersey, USA W PTS 10 10
1948-04-12

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Jim Holden

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Laurel Garden, Newark, New Jersey, USA D PTS 8 8
1948-03-19

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Vern Mitchell

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Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA L PTS 6 6
1948-02-19

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Leo Matriciani

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Armory, Newark, New Jersey, USA D PTS 10 10
1948-02-09

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Billy Gilliam

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Laurel Garden, Newark, New Jersey, USA L PTS 8 8
1948-01-26

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Billy Gilliam

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Laurel Garden, Newark, New Jersey, USA L PTS 8 8
1947-12-23

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Angel Sotillo

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Sunnyside Garden, Sunnyside, Queens, New York, USA L TKO 4 8
time: 2:28 | referee: Barney Felix | judge: Anthony Liszankle | judge: Nick Gamboli
Applegate was stopped on a cut right eye

 

hard to call someone a damaging puncher when they could not tip the Norton chin, I would call Larry accurate with the Jab and right hand. I did not call him chinny but susceptible to variations of the right hand and I feel he avoided the more seasoned right hand punchers of his era at least 9 times and fought the 10-12-13-14 -15 fight guys as an alternate, remember he gave up a title not to fight Page and never unified in his era of multiple champions nor did he rematch the novice Witherspoon or Williams and fought 22 fight Snipes and 10 fight Spinks over Coetzee even though it was clear That Coetzee dropped Snipes 2X and won (King robbed) and Spinks was KO'd in 1 by Coetzee (right hands )

 

Hard to call someone NOT a damaging puncher
when they have 33 stoppages in 44 wins.
And overall, including when fighting way past prime ,44 stoppages in 69 fights for a near 70% ko record.