Larry Holmes vs Sonny Liston

Ali has more punching power than Holmes.

 

Well Holmes did beat big men who could punch like Smith, Witherspoon and Weaver

 

Ali was like a Holyfield puncher. Not ATG level, but respectable heavyweight power. You would take damage trying to walk through his punches.

 

Yes, very respectable.

Ali could also whip out some heavy single shots - for eg, the left hook that dropped Bonavena, the single chopping right hand that badly wobbled Frazier in round 2 of Super Fight 2 and the single right hand bomb that discombobulated Lyle and initiated his demise.

A more flat footed Ali’s punching display in the 1972 Chuvalo rematch was also very good - George was definitely feeling quite a few of those shots but he was still ironed jawed Chuvalo after all.

Ali was no Captain Feather Sword.

 

Yup. Ali showed he could stop more durable fighters. Ali stopped Bonavena with a left hook. Bonavena had never been stopped before. Bonavena went the distance with Frazier twice and also with Ron Lyle. Holmes did not stop a single fighter as durable as Bonavena.

Watch how Ali backed up Foreman with his power in round 5 of their fight. Foreman was forced to step back because of the dynamite Ali was throwing at him. Ali buckled Liston in round 1 of their first fight with fast hard combinations. Did Holmes ever force guys with the durability of Foreman or Liston to back up? I don't recall Holmes backing up Witherspoon. If he could, he would have.

Ali stopped Lyle. Only other man to stop prime Lyle was a hard hitting Foreman.

Its a myth Holmes is somehow a harder puncher than Ali. He isn't. He has a harder jab but that's about it. Ali had a better left hook, and a better straight right. Holmes may have the better uppercut but then again, he isn't Lewis or Tyson when it comes to uppercuts.

 

I personally believe that Ali had more damage output because he poured it on with his combination punching, whereas Holmes relied on single shots or simple combinations. Holmes likely had more one punch power, but Ali simply had more to give.

 

Well, if Holmes’ plan is to run & spoil all night, he can lose a decision as clearly as Machen did.

 

I think that you're confusing Holmes' gameplan with an early Young's.

Heh. Early Young's.

 

What would you call Machen’s gameplan in that fight? He did everything but fight, & lost a wide decision for it. This is not evidence of a Holmes victory here. I’m not picking anyone as it’s a highly debatable fight, BTW.

 

I think Larry Holmes wins this fight by unanimous decision but a very closely contested one.

 

Now, if Ali had fought Witherspoon we could make some comparisons.

Ali managed to hurt guys that were exhausted or through long accumulation of punches throughout a bout. If he was such a big puncher he'd have managed to handle Norton who could be argued to have won their series. But yeah, sorry, I've also seen Ali land 4-6 punch combinations on guys and it did absolutely nothing. Yeah, his speed was impressive but the needle barely moved off zero insofar as power was concerned.

 

He mostly tried to stick, move, and spoil as much as he could in the fight, but mostly kept to the latter two due to a lack of speed, reach, and ability to get through to Liston, both on the inside and the outside. Despite the fact that Machen really didn't fight too much, Liston still had troubles with nailing him, and I think that it provides enough evidence to show that Liston had a hard time with movers, even if only decent ones. Holmes was superior in every way to Machen, reach, power, speed, defensive capability, jabbing, whatever you want to say, and if Machen could make Liston go it the hard way, then Holmes could make Liston go down the hard way.
I also agree that this is highly debatable. I wouldn't argue if I thought that this was easily seen, and Liston has as good a chance as anybody does else in the list of ATGs, if not better. 84" arms, extremely measured and patient with great skill and execution, and the kind of punch that could knock a man's block off, even if it was Holmes'.

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree then, in what we get out of the Machen fight. He did everything to avoid a fight, to the point of running, & lost in a fight that was not at all competitive as a result. I don’t see cause to hold it against Liston. Holmes would have fought cautiously, but cautious is a long way from similarly.