Larry Holmes worst opponent

Yes it was not the strongest era at all. A confusing time where inexperienced prospects began to make the ratings for the first time because this was the start of the multi championship era.

I often wonder if all the 1980s contenders had to fight more rated contenders themselves before getting title shots would they have had as much left to offer a champion after climbing the ranks in the time honoured way?

All successful fighters owe much of their arrival on the world scene to something of a navigated path through the ranks. It got easier and easier starting at the beginning of this multi championship era. But it's what you do once you make that arrival. Everybody but Holmes was 50-50 against "world level" guys so he stood out. However, the credentials of the world level guys don't stand up in the way world level guys did in earlier era's. That's just how it was.

Holmes did miss out, avoid, took alternate routes or was navigated around certain champions who were 50-50 at world level like the rest of the challenging contenders of that time. Taking 3.1 million dollars for Marvis Frazier over 2.5 million for Greg Page should be justifiably taken into account ...but all in all, was Page the strongest guy of that period?

Coetzee v Holmes should have happened right after Ali retired and Coetzee beat Spinks with the winner to fight Tate. That would have produced an undisputed championship right there. It never happened because the governing body's, TV and the promoters wanted a multi championship era.

 

Scott Frank was the worst during Holmes' reign. Definitely. (Although their were worse opponents when Holmes staged his comeback.)

But getting back to Dundee. Dundee trained a lot of fighters. And in many of those camps he was a significant contributor.

That said, Angelo Dundee was terrible for Ali. Ali liked Dundee because Angelo never told him what to do - like most trainers would. Ali ran the camp. Dundee was there to collect a check.

Angelo gets a "huge" pass from everyone in every instance where Ali showed up terribly out of shape.

As trainer, getting Ali in shape was Dundee's responsibility. The fact that Ali showed up like he did against Holmes WAS ALL ON DUNDEE. But nobody gave Angelo any crap about it and Dundee skated by because everyone knew he held no sway and held no real responsibility in that camp. In Ali's camp, Dundee was a "yes" man, that's all.

What trainer on earth would let their fighter enter a title match like that? Hell, even Tyson Fury's trainer called off the fight with Ustinov because he thought Fury's head wasn't right and he was prime to get upset.

Ali was a stumbling, barely alert zombie, and Dundee put his gloves on and greased him up and sent him out. He didn't care. And Dundee did not stop it until Herbert Muhammad signaled from ringside to stop it. Dundee WOULD NEVER STOP an Ali fight on his own. When Herbert said to stop it, that's when Dundee loudly said "I'm the chief second, I stop the fight!" It was such bull crap.

Dundee was terrified of the Muslims going back to the first Liston fight. When Ali got stuff in his eye, a bunch of Nation of Islam brothers surrounded Dundee during the round and he had to explain to them what was happening because Dundee was Italian and the Muslims thought he was working for the mob to help Liston win.

Dundee shoved Ali out of his corner blind and told him to run against Liston because if "he" stopped it the Muslims would've blamed him and tore him up.

Dundee only cared about the money. That's all. When Ali fought Ellis, Dundee trained Ellis because he got paid TWICE if he worked in Ellis' corner - because he was both Jimmy's trainer and manager. With Ali, he would've only got the trainer's cut. (And Ali certainly didn't miss him, coming off the only loss in his pro career. Frankly, Ali should've fired him then.)

Dundee and Sugar Ray Leonard broke up because Dundee wanted a higher percentage after Leonard beat Hagler. He didn't care about Leonard. Once again, it was all about the money.

Dundee was no better than Bundini Brown. Pacheco has called out Dundee numerous times for just sticking around "for the money."

I can't stand it when people say Dundee was Ali's "friend." If a friend will send you out like Dundee sent Ali out against Holmes, he's no friend. Clearly. Ali-Holmes should've been called off in the weeks leading up to it. Angelo Dundee was Ali's trainer. He knew Ali had no business fighting. He was the final stop-gap. He did absolutely NOTHING.

Dundee didn't work Ali's corner to "protect" him against Holmes in case it got too rough. He'd have let Holmes kill Ali if Herbert Muhammad didn't wave it off.

 

As you know, Ali and Jimmy Ellis had been friends since they were young. I don't think Ali ever thought Jimmy Ellis could beat him. That's one reason why they were friends. Ellis knew his place. Larry Holmes kind of said the same thing in his book. Ali was friends with Larry Holmes, too, until Holmes wanted to go on his own. Ellis always remained primarily an Ali "sparring partner" ... even after Jimmy had been a champ and while he was a rated contender in the 70s. Which is kind of bizarre. Most "champs" have more pride than that.

Forget, Ellis, though. If you put yourself in Ali's shoes ... you were the undefeated heavyweight champion, you had your title stripped from you ... then Dundee manages and trains your friend to win your vacant title in the WBA tourney. That had to sting a little.

Then you (Ali) finally get a license after three and a half years, you're dead broke because you're facing a five-year prison term and you're fighting it all the way to the Supreme Court.

You lose to Frazier, your first loss, and now you're sitting there waiting for the Supreme Court to decide whether or not you go to prison until the late 70s.

All the money you made (after taxes) against Frazier is going to pay legal fees and pay back those who lent you money while you were unemployed for three years.

You've got nothing ... you're just waiting for a verdict

Then your trainer, Dundee, who also manages Ellis, meets with your manager, Herbert Muhammad, to stage a fight between you and Ellis (who was no worse than the third-best heavyweight after Frazier and Ali) ... which will essentially be your last fight before you go to prison (because Ali had lost every ruling all the way to the Supreme Court).

So, like four weeks before the Ellis fight, the Supreme Court comes back and rules in Ali's favor. At that moment, Ali had a huge weight lifted off his shoulders. He was free. He was relieved. He had his whole life back. That's when Ali's entourage started to morph from the Muslims to more of a "circus" atmosphere. Everyone was welcome. It turned into a big party for the next five years.

But what if Ali had lost the Court ruling and he had a few weeks to turn himself in?

His last fight would've been with Ellis, so he could put some money away to support his wife and kids while he was in prison And there's Dundee and his old buddy Ellis trying to knock him off before he gets shipped away.

I agree, he should've let Dundee train Ellis, and then he should've never allowed either one of them back in his camp.

The timing of Ali-Ellis, and the fact that Dundee signed Ellis to fight Ali before the Supreme Court ruling, knowing full well there was a good chance Ali wouldn't fight again after Ellis ... that showed how "loyal" Dundee was to Ali.

People were surprised when the Court ruled in Ali's favor. I'm sure Dundee was one of them.

After the Ellis fight, both Dundee and Jimmy Ellis slinked back to Ali's camp and never caused any trouble with "the champ" ever again. But they'd both essentially betrayed him at his lowest point.

Ali kept a lot of "bad" people in his camp. Dundee was just one of them.

 

Larry made it hard to rate him historically. In terms of ability, I'd probably put money on him h2h over anyone, including Ali, Lewis, and Vlad (and I know I'll be killed for this), but he had a horrible resume of title defenses. Larry showed way more guts as an ex champ, fighting quite a few tough guys late in his career. It was weird and highly unusual how he rematched Weaver and Bonecrusher late in their careers....and proved to have way more left than either of them. Strange guy, that Larry Holmes. As a fan though, his seven years at champ was a long, tiring slog.

 

Larry Holmes was more calculating than people think, his target was to break Marciano's record. That's why he was so pissed and bitter after his loss to Spinks.

I think Holmes is also talking **** when he says he didn't want to fight Ali, he knew full well that Ali was washed up and he knew the fight would bolster his status as a great.