Larry Homes .Vs. Rocky Marciano Both 49-0.

Yes, Holmes was around 22 years of age and weighing some 188 Lbs when Nick Wells cought him. Of course, this was long before Holmes benefitted from sparring with Muhammad Ali, training with Rich Giachetti, or putting on enough Lbs to be considered a mainstream heavyweight by 1970's and 1980's standards. That's okay though, Wells beating Holmes is still a good enough example for Suzie.

 

I could not agree more, EXCELLENT POSTS Gentlemen.

I still haven't heard from him after this either. I guess the truth hurts.

 

Good day Henry,

I have a question for you. Suzie Q continuously illudes to Louis beating a streak of "rated fighters" in 1951 leading up to his match with Marciano. How many of those guys were truly players, or were most of them just journeyman and fringe types?

 

good points on the counters...Marciano is known for one of the best right hands ever but his hooks are underated...I too think the uppercut would come in to play but Marciano would power/counter and it would end up like Tyson/Holmes only with a younger Larry on the floor IMO

 

I just found an interesting pattern. thats all. I dont hold it against holmes pro career.

I had it 143-143....Holmes got outjabbed the whole fight, his workrate was less than normal. If he had been in there with a peak raging fire young hungry marciano, he would have got broken down badly.

There is doubt whether Michael Spinks would even see the 5th round against Marciano. Spinx fought a complete different style than Rocky and troubled holmes greatly....I think rocky's style matches up better. Lets face it, Joe Louis is a better heavyweight than Larry Holmes. Joe Louis at 36 was better than holmes at 36. We have a filmed fight between marciano vs louis, and Louis is the closest thing to size and jab and skills we can compare with a fight between 1985 larry holmes...I see no reason why marciano can't do to holmes what he did to louis. Were talking a 36 year old holmes here, your vastly overrating larry holmes if you think larry can beat any ATG swarmer/slugger at the peak of there powers at the age of 36 with a fat tire around his midsection.

Walcott was coming off of multiple wins over a prime ATG ezzard charles. holmes was coming off highly questionable decision over carl truth williams, a 10 fight embryo who still hadnt developed. There is no comparison here. The comparison here is with Joe Louis...Louis at age 36 was 6'2 214lb Holmes at age 36 was 6'3 223lb...pretty close. Both had top jabs, both had outstanding skills....Except Louis was in much better shape with no fat on him. Both were # 1 rated contenders, and both had lost to an ATG lightheavyweight(Charles, Spinx).....I think a louis vs holmes comparison is most valid here.

Too bad we never got to see some of those "best" performances vs experienced prime fighters like Thomas, Tubbs, Coetzee, WBC mandatory Page, or rematch with Witherspoon.

Well the Marciano who walked through and demolished a 36-37 year old but still capable Joe Louis in 1951 would have not only lambasted through a 1985 36 year old holmes, but would have given Holmes at his peak pure hell. Even the Swarmer version who broke down archie moore in 55, a 1985 holmes can't take that kind of bone crushing shots for 15 rounds, his bones and joints are too old, not enough stamina anymore. Now, The slugger version of marciano who took out kid matthews walcott layne, etc this is a huge hurdle for Prime Larry Holmes too. Would rocky win? maybe yes, maybe no, but no way would it be one sided. 6'1 202lb Mike Weaver went in and landed right hand after right hand for 11 rounds and outslugged holmes, if he can make it a close fight with aggresive slugger style, Marciano can. Weaver btw was 19-8 when holmes fought him.

Yes I have studied holmes many times, and he looks great and I think he does exceptionally well vs the tall bug ATG sluggers like foreman liston lennox. However, I do not think Larry does well against tyson marciano or frazier.

Ranked punchers, but he fought only one GREAT puncher, and that man knocked him out in 4 rounds. Renaldo Snipes no matter what you say, was not that good of a puncher, with one punch he put holmes on ***** st. If Snipes actually had finishing skills, he would have taken larry outta there.

very impressive knockout indeed, but this was the same 19-8 Mike Weaver who came holmes HUGE problems all night with that right hand, enough problems that it prompted earnie shavers from ringside to pursue another fight with larry. Coincidently, no REMATCH for mike weaver even after weaver won a belt. Larry didnt give those, marciano always did.

Don't tell me you buy into that bull**** from Larry's book. Larry got destroyed, his habit of being a sucker for right hands caught up with once again.

Yes good legacy building win, Larry was tough in his 40s, but he had the style that could last him into his 40s. But I dont see what this has to do with a matchup between a prime marciano.

 

Forget about boxing for a minute suzie. I want to know how hell week went at the academy.

 

Holmes fought Wells at the end of his amatuer career and he was already sparring with Ali in the amatuers (I dont know time frame)

Amateur level

As a member of the US Air Force and a four-time All-Air Force boxing champion, Wells won the 1972 US Amateur heavyweight championship. In that year, he twice knocked out future WBC and IBF heavyweight champion Larry Holmes. The first time was in the 3rd round of a National Amateur Athletic Union tournament; later that year, in the US Olympic Trials, he knocked Holmes out in the first round. He went on to face 1971 US Amateur heavyweight champion Duane Bobick in the finals of the Olympic Trials, where he broke Bobick's nose early in the fight and appeared to be on his way to representing the United States in the Olympics. But a head wound suffered before the fight at his hotel began to bleed profusely, and the fight was stopped by the referee. Bobick went on to lose to Cuban heavyweight and eventual gold medal winner Teofilo Stevenson in the Olympic quarterfinals.
One of the most popular amateur boxers in Texas during the 1970s, Wells was a five-time Fort Worth Golden Gloves champion and a two-time Star-telegram Texas State Golden Gloves champion. Three time Texas state champion 1969,1970,1971.Five time all air force champion1972,1973,1974,1975,1976. Two time interservice champion1973,1975.Three time interservice runner up 1972,1974,1976.Two time Nevada state golden gloves champion 1972,1973. 1972 National AAU Champion. Western hemisphere Champion 1972 or 1973. World military Champion(CISM games)1973 Texas state champion 1971. This a few Nick can remember off the top of his head. Wells compiled an amateur record of 189-18 with 110 knockouts, 72 of them in the first round.

[edit] Pro level

Wells declined an opportunity to be trained by legendary trainer and manager Lou Duva in New Jersey, opting instead to train and fight out of his hometown of Fort Worth, Texas. He compiled a professional record of 10 - 3 before taking a job with the Fort Worth Fire Department in 1978, in order to support his one year old son Nickolas as well as to ensuring a stable futurer for the both of them. He continued his professional boxing career

 

And lets please not say Height was an issue, Wells was 5"10


Nick Wells
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Name: Nick Wells
Career Record: click
Nationality: US American
Hometown: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Born: 1951-02-11
Stance: Southpaw
Height: 5′ 10″


As an amateur, Nick Wells twice beat Larry Holmes by knockout: once in a Golden Gloves national event in the 3rd round, and later that year in 1972 at the Olympic trials with a first round knockout. Wells had an opportunity to be trained by Lou Duva, but ended up going with local promoter Winky Groom, under whom he was not able to achieve contender status. His amateur record was 189-18 with 110 KOs, 72 of them in the 1st round. One of the most popular amateur boxers in Texas during the 1970s, Well was a five-time Fort Worth Golden Gloves champion and a two-time Star-telegram Texas State Golden Gloves champion.

Wells, a four-time All-Air Force champion was a runner-up in the 1972 Olympic Trials to Duane Bobick. During this year, Wells was also a National AAU champion and a gold medalist in the CISM Games -- better known as the World Military Games.

Retrieved from "http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Nick_Wells"

 

WELLS VERSION

BOXING'S WELLS COULD FIRE UP A CROWD, TURN OUT THE LIGHTS





Fort Worth Star-Telegram July 7, 2007 Author: JIM REEVES; Star-Telegram Staff Writer







BURLESON — The hand that held the coffee cup was big and wide and meaty, still strong all these years later. I stared at it, wondering, "How many jaws have felt the wrath of that fist? How many noses broken? How many lights turned out?" That's what Nick Wells did, you know. In the early '70s, when Golden Gloves was in its heyday in Fort Worth, Nick was the guy who turned out the lights at Will Rogers Coliseum. Now, 35 years later and counting, he sat across from me in a back booth at an IHOP on south I-35, and we remembered together what it was like when boxing was king in Cowtown.

Later this afternoon, Wladimir Klitschko will take on Lamon Brewster in a 12-round fight for the IBF and IBO heavyweight championship of the world in Cologne, Germany, and if you weren't aware of that, you're not alone. Not many people care about boxing anymore, and part of the reason is that there just aren't many like Nick Wells anymore.

Nick is 56 now, and he looks more like me without the mustache — short, blocky, gray — than he did when he was the terror of Will Rogers Coliseum and other boxing rings around the world. It still doesn't take a lot of imagination, however, to remember the havoc those fists once wrought. He had phoned a few weeks ago, the first time I'd heard from him in years, wondering if I knew how to reach someone with the AAU, and I suggested we meet — we both live in Johnson County — and talk about the way things were, when the Gloves were something special and unique in Fort Worth.

"Those were the golden years, and not just for the fighters, but for the fans, too," Wells said. "They made the whole thing happen.

"The excitement they brought to Will Rogers Coliseum... the ghosts that were there were phenomenal. I think I speak for all the fighters back then: It was greatly appreciated."

Golden Gloves and amateur fighting aren't the same here now, for a number of reasons. Nick is right: Those were the golden years. If you don't remember Wells or the way Golden Gloves once ruled this city, let me fill you in. You'd pick up a sports section from this newspaper in February in the '60s and early '70s and chances are you'd see an eight-column banner headline proclaiming, "Wells Scores Another First-Round KO." The left-hander out of Polytechnic High became one of the top amateur heavyweights in the world, compiling a record of 189-18 with 110 knockouts. An amazing 72 were first-round KOs. In those days, the Will Rogers crowd was shocked when an opponent lasted past the first two minutes in the ring with Nick.

"I had a lot of fights, but didn't necessarily spend a lot of time in the ring," Wells said. "I'm actually low mileage."

He's in his 29th year with the Fort Worth Fire Department now and works a second job as a security guard at Harris Methodist Southwest, helping put his daughter Hayley through school at UT-Arlington. Like me, he sometimes wonders what might have been if he'd caught the right break, signed up with the right manager, when he turned pro. A single parent, working a fulltime job to support his then 4-year-old son Nickolas, Wells couldn't just concentrate on boxing. He got out of the business with a 15-8 record as a pro, cutting too easily, bleeding too much.

"Maybe I was fortunate," he said. "I got out of it without having my bell rung too much. I didn't take a lot of punishment. I did take some. Everybody does."

Wells was one of those two-fisted fighters — he could hook with both hands — who dealt out a lot more punishment than he ever took. He twice knocked out Larry Holmes, who would go on to become heavyweight champion of the world. The first time came in the finals of National AAU tournament in '72. Wells had won his first three fights by first-round knockout, then stopped Holmes in the third round in the finals. Holmes would write in his autobiography that it was the first time he'd ever fought a left-hander, the first time he was ever stopped in a fight, his first loss. Figuring they might meet again, Holmes concentrated on working against other lefties. Didn't matter. When they met in the '72 Olympic Trials, staged at Daniel-Meyer Coliseum in Fort Worth, Wells knocked Holmes out again, this time in the first round.

"He had a lot more want-to the first time I fought him than he did the second time," Wells said.

 

I remember this amatuer era, it was very exciting, I was rooting for Wells over Bobick and these 2 white guys hated each other, they met like 5 times and Wells had a few unlucky injuries so Bobick got the best of him but they were wars.....Wells had sick power and he would have been better suited for the pro's if he had the money behind him and the connections and some good pro development...I alway kept my eye on the amatuers...I saw Leonard and others way before the olympics...an amatuer can improve his flaws in the pro's but they are still there...things like pro conditioning and training and ring knowledge help greatly.....I remember watching Tony Ayala as a fat light heavy vs a Ken Norton look a- like named Kirkand...Tony was a head shorter and Fat and this guy knocks him down 2 times but the lil fat dude got up and went to war, it was a brawl and Tony Ko'd the muscled up guy....that was a fight that kind of removed size and body muscle as a factor before a fight, because I thought for sure Ayala was going to get murdered

 

Some of the other fighters that i was impressed with in the amatuers were Riddick Bowe as light heavy, Cooney as a middleweight and Mark Breyland, Vito Antufermo, Howard Davis Jr., Ray Leonard, Eddie Gregory (Musthufa Muhamad) Carl Williams, Tony Ayala, Laporte, Ramos, I could go on

 

HHSCup,

My source is Old Fogey's monthly issues, So I am going to wait until he gets here to answer your points one by one. What I WILL give you right now is a undisputable FACT:

This content is protected

 

The only boxer, according to the Boxing Register, that was rated at the time Louis fought them was Savold. BUT I checked it out and also found out that Cesar Brion was also rated in the September 1951 Issue of Ring Magazine (period ending July 15, 1951, he fought Louis 17 days later).

Omelio Agramonte, was rated for 10 months (this also counts the annual ratings when he was rated outside the top 10) in both the Light Heavyweight & Heavyweight divisions from December 1947 to February 1952. His highest rating was #8. He wasn't rated either time when he fought Louis. In the annual rating, which was in the February 1951 Issue of Ring Magazine, Agramonte was rated #14. The next year, February 1952 Issue, he was rated #11 of the 2nd group, which would be #13 overall.

Cesar Brion, was rated for 15 months (this also counts the annual ratings when he was rated outside the top 10) from February 1951 to February 1953. His highest rating was #6. He was rated #8, after beating Jack Gardner, just before he fought Louis. Also, in the annual ratings, which was in the February 1951 Issue of Ring Magazine, Brion was rated #13. The next year, February 1952 Issue, he was rated #5 of the 2nd group, which would be #7 overall.

Jimmy Bivins, was rated for 125 months in the Middleweight, Light Heavyweight & Heavyweight divisions. His highest rating was #1. He wasn't rated either time when he fought Louis. In the annual ratings, which was in the February 1951 Issue of Ring Magazine, Bivins was rated as a Class A boxer. a long with 38 other Heavyweights. The next year, February 1952 Issue, he was rated #14 of the 2nd group, which would be #16 overall.

Freddie Beshore, was rated for 3 months (this also counts the annual ratings when he was rated outside the top 10) from March 1949 to October 1950. His highest rating was #9. In the annual ratings, which was in the February 1951 Issue of Ring Magazine, Beshore was rated as a Class A boxer. a long with 38 other Heavyweights. The next year, February 1952 Issue, he was again rated as a Class A boxer.

Savold was rated like I stated before.

Yes, your right when you say that they were all rated at one time or another BUT your wrong when you state that they were all rated when they fought Louis. I found out of the the 8 bouts Louis won, ONLY 2 of those opponents were rated in the top 10 at the time they fought Louis.

Old Fogey, who goes by the "Boxing Register," might tell you that only Savold was rated when they fought Louis. I have the same source as he does and that is what it says BUT I have even a better source, the Ring Magazine Ratings for each month when Louis fought those fighters and I did find that Brion was also rated at the time he fought Louis. He was rated #8 at that time. He got that rating when he beat Jack Gardner.

So only Savold and in the 2nd bout with Brion, was Louis boxing a Top 10 contender.

 

Even if that was all, its nor bad beating 2 top 10 contenders and being Joe Louis, Ali fought 2 before his shot at Frazier with no fillers...How many did Foreman, Holmes fight in there comebacks?

 

The question was about Louis. Ali did beat Quarry and Bonavena before he fought Frazier. Actually, Louis didn't box anyone before he fought for the title against Charles.