Last time: Holyfield vs ali

Marvelous_Iron · Aug 11, 2023

Holyfield was gassed by 5 vs Tillman, imagine the games Ali would play making Holyfield try to chase him down

mr. magoo · Aug 11, 2023

Evander would be competitive but I’d pick Ali to win every time at their best

Blofeld · Aug 14, 2023

Eddie Ezzard said: ↑

So peak Holy and the Ali that lost to 7 fight novice Leon Spinks is a toss up? Blimey. Evander doesn't get a lot of change out of you, does he, Blofeld?

Peak for peak, Ali wins. Take all their parts and rate them out of 10 so, say, Jab, hook, cross, body work, chin, power, footwork, IQ, stamina, inside game and tot up the totals. I bet there would be thismuch in it. But prime Ali's footwork and jab were sooooo good they negated his opponent's advantages in other areas of the game. It's no good having a better uppercut or inside game if your opponent is flying round out of reach, jabbing your head off.

But once Ali's footwork ceased being otherworldly ie the 70s, it is a different fight and Holyfield's superiority in other facets of the game come into play. 70s Ali never really proved his superiority over Ken Norton and imo Evander was better than Ken and could also provide a stylistic nightmare for Ali. He also had a sneaky and explosive left hook so he might really hurt Ali at some point. And he's not going to get drawn into brawling, which could be his undoing, because Ali wouldn't have initiated that brawl. If Evander keeps calm and sticks to his game plan, that of the Douglas fight, this could be a horrible night for Ali.

Other points to consider. Holyfield was always in shape, notwithstanding PED use, whereas 70s Ali could get fat and have to coast a lot in fights to conserve stamina. Peak Holyfield had good stamina.

So in short, I feel Ali could hit heights that Holy couldn't when both were at their best, in Ali's case the mid sixties. But, over time, Ali became a different fighter. Not necessarily worse, but the advantages he gained in the 70s such as extra strength, durability, guile, added power served him well against other opponents but would have been less effective vs Holy. Evander would have been quite happy for Ali to have had these extra qualities if they came at the expense of the speed and movement of the 60s that would have troubled him far more. Peak Holy is having some success in a series of fights with 70s Ali imo.
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Point taken, should have said mid 70s Ali

Jackstraw · Aug 14, 2023

Marvelous_Iron said: ↑

Holyfield at best gives Ali maybe 70% the trouble Frazier did, Holyfield was good on the inside but was certainly no Bonavena let alone Frazier, even early 70's Ali would be able to land lead rights at will, the question is if Holyfield can answer back with anything that actually hurts Ali, and the answer is no, unless we're going to start thinking Holyfield was as accurate and relentless as Frazier or had power like Foreman, which he wasn't and didn't

Holyfield's stamina also absolutely sucks if we're talking going 15 with Ali, Holyfield would probably have had a heart attack in Manila
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I’m pretty sure Holy was the last pro to have fought 15 rounds…

Marvelous_Iron · Aug 14, 2023

him and Qawi's work rate in the championship rounds was dismal compared to Charles vs Marciano, Frazier vs Ali, neither one of them had the gas to land a shot like the one Marciano finished Walcott with in the 13th if they even had that kind of power to begin with

Mike_b · Aug 14, 2023

Marvelous_Iron said: ↑

him and Qawi's work rate in the championship rounds was dismal compared to Charles vs Marciano, Frazier vs Ali, neither one of them had the gas to land a shot like the one Marciano finished Walcott with in the 13th if they even had that kind of power to begin with
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Not to be argumentative but to speak on the heart of Holyfield: he said he doubted himself many times in that fight. Like a swimmer who was halfway his swim destination, wondering if he should turn back or keep going, but being completely in the middle!

Marvelous_Iron · Aug 14, 2023

he definitely had heart

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