Late Career Ali shows big gap from Holmes?

Shavers probably won one round against Holmes in two fights. That was the knockdown round. Ali's fight with Shavers was much closer.
Many people scored the Holmes - Norton fight much more one sided for Holmes (10-5ish) than the judges. Holmes also fought that fight with a torn bicep.

 

I think Norton would have given Ali problems even in the 60`s because he jabbed with Ali which Ali`s flowing style, Muhammad used a lot of movement in the second Norton bout which Holmes didn`t so this saved Ali from getting tagged as much as Larry so it`s a case of styles rather than talent, in the third Norton fight Ali used a peek a boo style high guard which Larry could have used but a lot of fighters don`t fight that way, what about Leon Spinks he beat an untrained Ali then got beat in the rematch but Holmes KO`d him in 3.

 

I think you're crazy. It's obvious you haven't watched the 2 Holmes/Shavers fights but only heard that Shavers scored a knockdown in the second fight if you believe that Ali did just as well as Holmes against Shavers. So your entire agenda of downgrading Holmes standing rest entirely on the comparison between the decision that Ali got against Norton in 76 and the decision Holmes got over Norton in 78. Hell,if this was a court case and that's all the evidence you've got to base your case on, you would've been arrested and thrown into jail for contempt and wasting people's time.

 

Many times I say to myself that I rank Holmes so highly simply because I watched practically every single fight in his career. No doubt an ATG but I rate him No 3 behind Ali and Louis..... maybe too high.

You can't judge one fighter from the next by common opponents. The right hand Holmes got cocked with by Shavers was on the button and from the floor. Ali although hit by rifle blasts from Earnie was not his with Shavers Sunday best. Regarding Holmes life and death struggle with Norton this fight ADDS to Larrys status as an ATG. Fighting tooth and nail against top opposition, being hit constantly and hurt but still having that something extra to pull out the win MAKES Holmes an ATG fighter.

 

Shavers fought a near shot Ali.

Shavers fought Prime Holmes.

Therein lies the difference.

Ali in his prime was difficult to hit with right hands. Shot Ali was being tagged by, you guessed it, right hands by Shavers.

 

I think the gap between Prime Holmes and mid to late 1970s Ali is a lot bigger than the gap between Prime Ali and Prime Holmes.

 

People usually lose their **** when I say this, but I frankly don't think Homes-Norton was terribly close.

The first time I watched it found myself wondering when Norton was going to start doing anything that could possibly countervail Holmes' early and obvious lead, and build toward a justification of what I'd always heard about the fight, but by the time it looked like he was just *beginning* to dig himself out, his mid-rounds surge was in fact already over and Holmes resumed almost complete control.

At the opening of the fifteenth I thought surely Holmes must suffer two brutal knockdowns and be saved by the bell while defenseless on the ropes, otherwise how could so many have gotten this so wrong?

Maybe **** like this is a partial excuse for why Holmes has such a chip on his shoulder.

 

Holmes is definitely a fighter you can argue up or down extremely easily, particularly down imo. He's obvious top 10 imo and then you can put forth arguments for anywhere from 3 to 10'ish.

 

Hey Rez...

As an 11-year-old who turned into a Holmes fan after the Norton fight and who's teenage years were spent absorbing boxing to a degree that hasn't been matched since, the idea that Holmes is an all-time great is embedded into my DNA. I undoubtedly have a biased view of Holmes' greatness. Now with that disclaimer out of the way...

Holmes' coming out party was his nationally televised first fight against Shavers. Holmes thoroughly outboxed Earnie and won every round on two judges' cards and eleven of twelve on the other card. Going in I thought Holmes was a stepping stone toward Earnie getting another title shot. The only way Holmes could have been more impressive would have been to kayo Shavers. Not really a struggle.

Kenny Norton was on top of the world in June 1978. He'd finally (sort of) gotten the title he'd worked so hard for. He was a proud champion who wasn't going to let go of that title easily. The boxing community viewed Norton as being in his prime, as did Norton himself. Only hindsight tells us that Norton may have been on the downside by 1978. It wasn't supposed to be an easy fight for Holmes. Especially, as we now know, an injured Holmes. So I give Larry a pass for his struggle against Norton. It was a fight that undoubtably helped make Holmes into the all-time fighter he turned into. Going through hell in a fight like that and coming out on top can only increase one's confidence.

Evangelista... one punch kayo after winning every round. No struggle there.

Shavers II... Holmes won every round except the seventh. He was knocked down by a once-in-a-lifetime shot, a shot most fighters wouldn't have gotten up from. Holmes deserves high praise for that alone. While that one round was a struggle for Larry, the rest of the fight wasn't.

Berbick... Easy decision victory for Holmes. The only criticism one could level at Holmes was that he couldn't put Berbick away. But aside from a big puncher in Mercado (lucky shot?) and a motivated young Mike Tyson, who could?

Spinks... Many people thought Spinks would give Holmes trouble. He didn't. No struggle there, either.

I've got to disagree with your hypothesis. The only Ali opponents Holmes struggled with were a motivated Ken Norton and, for one round only, Earnie Shavers.

 

Actually Norton stated that after the third Ali bout in 76 he lost his motivation for the sport.

Also few aside from Norton fans thought of him as hwt champion since all he did to win it was to show up to be given the plastic belt. Spinks was in fact hwt champion because he actually beat Ali (as in winning the decision) and remained hwt champion until he lost to Ali in their rematch.

Ali then officially retired after beating L Spinks months later.