Legend vs legend - Muhammad Ali vs Mike Tyson - When legends collide

Is that seriously your best argument? Spinks wasn't exactly the most durable of fighters to say the least, and despite this Holmes needed a barrage of right hands to floor him, and despite having him cornered, and defenseless, failed to put him in significant trouble again and had to have the ref step in. Call me crazy, but Ali hurting and knocking out Foreman and Bonavena, two extremely durable fighters never stopped before or after, was far more impressive to me.

 

I don't think there are too many occasions where a fight was decided by prefight psych-outs, though. Tyson is one of the few who won that way (against Spinks, and even that's arguable), at least per the thread I remember posting on it awhile ago asking for examples of victories due to intimidation.

 

All respect, Swag, but Leon was looking pretty out of it, wasn't he? I do sympathize with your points.

 

So the Muhammad Ali who fought Alfredo Evangelista and Leon Spinks is the benchmark by which we measure him and not the Muhammad Ali who fought Ringo and Big George. That seems no less fair to me than using the Mike Tyson who fought Kevin McBride and Danny Williams as a benchmark and not the Mike Tyson who fought Trevor Berbick and Michael Spinks. How about we just use as benchmarks when boxers were at or near their best?That seems fair and intellectually honest.

 

Norton couldn't be hurt by Ali in three fights. Though it could be argued the Holmes Norton was past it (I'm not entirely convinced of that, seeing the fight he gave Larry).

 

Holmes hit harder than Ali. I'm just saying the Evangelista and Spinks fights are poor benchmarks.

 

You're probably right.

 

Holmes sat down on his punches more than Ali who was constantly fighting backwards. I would add Norton said Ali was the strongest fighter he faced and that hitting him was like hitting cement and that Ali was the best fighter he faced.

 

I don't think there's a whole lot separating Holmes and Ali in terms of raw hitting power. Ali had a little more snap in his right cross and scored more knockdowns with it, Holmes clearly had the stronger uppercut. Jabs, Holmes might have a teeny bit more sting to it while Ali flicked his jab and didn't put as much weight as Holmes.

Overall, both could be described as being "sharp" punchers (as opposed to heavy handed punchers that batter and club you, or explosive punchers who shift their weight and punch through you with devastating speed+power). Sharp punchers hurt you with their speed, accuracy, and timing. Since they usually can't blast you out with one big shot or a combination, they tend to cause a lot of damage with rapid fire punches that may cause cuts and/or swelling. They blur your vision or shut your eyes while sapping your energy by knocking you upside the head with whip like blows and razor sharp counters. It's not uncommon to see them looking to land a blow from an angle you don't see coming. Death by a thousand cuts, and then a few flurries for the final execution chop.

 

I wasn't suggesting Ali terrifies Tyson and has him quivering like Spinks. Ali did the opposite. He made some opponents so angry they often neglected the game plan and wasted a lot of energy trying to take his head off. I don't think this would be particularly difficult for Ali to do to young Tyson who had serious anger issues and insecurities. Imagine Ali mocking his lisp, his gap teeth, or God forbid it's the post prison Tyson and he talks about his tattoo and drug usage. People rarely consider this for h2h discussions.

On the flip side, Tyson may even hesitate in the match because of the respect he has for him. It happened to Shavers. This is assuming we take Tyson as is and not some perfect hybrid version of both guys who has all the knowledge and wisdom of their older selves in their prime bodies. The pre fight face offs could be pretty chaotic.

 

Fair enough; I wasn't assuming you were arguing that Ali would terrify Tyson. My more general point was that pre-fight psych-outs of all kinds -- scaring people, infuriating people, etc. -- may not be as effective against professional boxers as we'd expect. Duran might've altered the outcome of his fight with Leonard that way, and there are a couple other examples (like the hypnosis trick), but I don't know how much weight I'd put on it. Even with a young, angry guy like Tyson.