Legend vs legend - Muhammad Ali vs Mike Tyson - When legends collide

Apropos of nothing Muhammad Ali was hanging out with Dustin Hoffman the day of the Bonavena fight. Ali called him "Midnight Cowboy". Actually, Jon Voight was "Midnight Cowboy". Dustin Hoffman was his pimp in the movie.

 

Lest I was misunderstood, I think I made it pretty clear that I believe Ringo was stopped by Ali’s punch - not exhaustion. Ali’s left hook was a monster shot but the short, tighter hook just prior to was a nice “how do you do” shot also.

 

I was moreso addressing White Bomber while cosigning your post. Maybe it came across as if I thought you believed exhaustion led to Ringo's defeat. Bomber is notorious for repeating the same things over and over and he insists on downplaying any of Ali's feats of power.

 

No worries - I figured that to be likely the case - I just wanted to make myself clear just in case. I’ve co-signed in similar fashion several times which I hope hasn’t been misread by anyone with whom I am actually whole heartedly agreeing with.

I’ve also wondered how much Ali’s troublesome hands might’ve effected his willingness to punch hard each and every time out. True or not, I’ve read/heard for Zaire, they elected to forgo the novocaine shots, instead opting to soak Ali’s hands in paraffin. That was one of Ali’s more impressive, consistently punching hard displays - even more impressive after the fact when the steel in Foreman’s chin was even better upheld in later career performances.

Anyway, seeing Ali hit the bag at speed and in combination prior to the Brian London fight - there’s plenty of snap and power there and Ali’s clearly shifting the bag around.

 

He weighed 214 pounds when he defeated Cleveland Williams.

 

"It took Ali 15 rounds, and the scorecards were even to Stop Bonavena."

Bonavena was awkward and that made for an ugly fight but Ali was well ahead on points when he dropped him.


Muhammad Ali 212 lbs beat Oscar Bonavena 204 lbs by TKO at 2:03 in round 15 of 15

• Date: 1970-12-07
• Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
• Referee: Mark Conn 12-2
• Judge: Joe Eppy 10-3
• Judge: Jack Bloom 8-5

https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Oscar_Natalio_Bonavena

Bonavena was awkward and that made for an ugly fight but Ali was well ahead on points when he dropped him.

 

Because it’s mostly technique reliant?

 

This is an interesting assertion. Not sure about it being mostly that, but I'm thinking of a term that might come under fire here: "smart strength".

 

It’s as simple as we getting stronger and better at what we do. Ali knew how to and clinched a lot so he got better at it.

 

I would have to disagree with you.

"Effective" clinching does rely more on technique than raw physical strength, but strength definitely plays a huge role.

I remember doing clinch training with a guy who had multiple pro fights. We did drills and wrestled for 30 minutes and weren't allowed to punch. He admitted he couldn't do much because I was too strong despite the vast difference in experience.

The original discussion you were having about Holyfield vs Foreman, these are Hoylfield's words:

Foreman: "Out of all the people, I would say George Foreman was the strongest. And behind him Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe. I could push anybody back, it wasn’t a problem. I couldn’t push George back. (Laughs.) You had to go around him."

Hoylfield is directly comparing his own physical strength vs Foreman's and says that despite being able to hold his own with modern super heavies like Bowe and Lewis, he couldn't push Foreman back and got outmuscled. It's quite clear what he's referring to and it's not just technique.

 

The idea of effective clinching is to make the other guy support your weight and tire him out you don’t need to be strong but it can help.
This isn’t wrestling you’re not trying to psychically overpower someone in a boxing clinch tying a guy up isn’t really a big feat of strength like it could be in the old days.

 

According to Teddy Atlas, Tyson was already 200 lbs and very muscular as a teenager before he had even started boxing. Just because you're a certain height doesn't mean you can compete in a lower division.

Hoylfield was skinny as hell in the amateurs competing at light heavyweight. He didn't become a real heavyweight until doing lots of intense weight lifting and eating more. He wasn't naturally bigger than Tyson just because he was taller, that's not how that works.

It's the complete opposite. Hoylfield stopped Stewart in the first fight in 1989. They went the distance in their rematch in 1993. Holyfield weighed exactly the same for both matches.

Both matches occurred before he fought Tyson.