Lennox Lewis 1997 vs Muhammad Ali 1967

How do you rate Lennox and Ali h2h against other ATGs?

 

I rate them both among the absolute elite head to head, in the bracket where you cant give particularly long odds against them. Ali has a strong case for being the #1 heavyweight head to head. Lennox Lewis beat the living tar out of Vitally Klitschko at thae age of 38 in his final fight, and today nobody seems to hea able to win a round against him.

I guess they would both be sucesfull in prety much all fantasy matchups that did not involve a bad stylistic match for them. Ali would always have had issues with pressure fighters and he had technical flaws that would have left him open to certain forms of inteligent counterpunching. His relative lack of power might have permited some fighters with suspect chins to execute plans against him that would normaly have been fatal. Lewis's chin is somtimes under rated, but he might have had issues with the elite finishers and trap setters among the ATGs. He might also have had issues with certain typse of counterpunchers.

 

Well put. I agree.

 

For whatever it's worth, I scored Ali the winner over Berbick, 97-93. Ali was far better against Berbick than John Tate had been, or than Greg Page would be six months later. I did not say Lennox had poor stamina, but he was not noted for it, which is true. Endurance was a great strength of Ali's though, and he closed strong as late as Norton III, Shavers, Leon Spinks I, and even Berbick. Lennox never stopped an opponent beyond round eight, and one of those two events was against a decrepit, one punch oriented Tyson. Ali engineered eight stoppages in round 11 or beyond, chose not to stop Mathis in round 12, and nearly stopped Shavers in round 15. A ratio of 8-0 or 10-0 in such late round stoppages is sufficient evidence for a claim of significantly superior stamina.

Concerning their respective ages, Ali was already champion at 22, an age when Lennox was still an amateur. Of course Ali would be more spent at 38. He started much, much earlier in the pro ranks, after first taking up the gloves at age 12. Like Lennox, Holmes was much older when he got started, and kept on going at a far more advanced age.

Bugner had a very good combination of size, strength, skill and power, and was also proved over the championship distance. Of course he wasn't quite at the same level Lennox achieved, but Bugner was a far closer approximation of LL than anybody Lennox fought was to Ali.

Lewis-Mercer was just a half dozen months prior to 1997. Ali fought Norton for the first time half a dozen years after 1967. (In fact, six years and one week after Zora Folley.)

I don't rate Holmes before his breakthrough in Shavers I, or Ali before his own breakthrough in Liston I. Likewise, I don't hold Lennox's failure to take out Ocasio against him. They were all pre prime at these stages.

However, Lennox was a reigning champion when McCall and Rahman dethroned him, and between reigns when Mercer out jabbed him and arguably won in 1996. His power failed to dent McCall's chin in 1997, the very year's version we are to compare to 1967 Ali. Lennox never had an exile which permanently diminished his athleticism the way both Patterson and Chuvalo confirmed that Muhammad's own had been dramatically reduced after they re-matched him in 1972.

As for Norton, their first match was embarrassingly close for Ken, considering how under trained Ali was, and the fact that an untreated impacted wisdom tooth resulted in his jaw being broken in the second round. Ali had Norton, and Lennox had Holyfield.

Something else Norton had going for him factors into any fantasy match I have between Ali and Holmes, something Frazier also had going for him against Ali. Norton, Frazier and Holmes all had Eddie Futch, Ali's kryptonite. Manny Steward is a worthy long time member of the IBHOF, but he never had an opportunity to prove himself against Ali, who prevailed against a number of noted trainers and strategists, including Angelo Dundee (who worked against him with Jimmy Ellis). Steward improved Lennox, but that close call with Mercer still transpired.

Regarding Cooper "knocking out" pre-prime Clay, first of all, he bounced right back up, then the bell rang. Yes, he was out on his feet, but unless you are going to argue the referee should have stopped it then and there, crediting Cooper with a "knockout" is absurd. Dundee only bought him a few seconds by showing the referee the torn glove, ripping it further open in the process. Cooper was already cut. They both could have used the time it would have taken to replace a torn glove, but if either was advantaged by referee Tommy Little's decision to resume action promptly, it was Cooper, who was given a timely chance to follow up on his advantage. Years later, Ali showed against Frazier how he might have responded if Cooper had decked him at the outset of round four, instead of the conclusion of it. Both in the amateurs, and against Banks, Clay had already demonstrated those powers of recuperation.

Nobody came close to beating Ali circa 1964 to 1967, and it's the Ali of 1967 being considered here. Lennox did have that close call with Mercer in mid 1996, and failed to dent McCall's chin in 1997. Something else that needs to be considered is that Lennox was already in his early 30s, while Ali was 26. No matter how good Lennox got, Ali always would have had the advantage of youth at their respective peaks.

 

He made him cry though.

 

Made him cry the first time too.

 

Ali by wide UD

 

ali by a wide points decision .

 

Muhammad Ali by clear decision..... too fast, too sharp, too fleet-footed & too much skill.

 

i don't know what's wrong with you sometimes

 

Ali & Joe Louis should always be 1 & 2 if you look at all the best ever HWs careers properly... they are probably the top 2 as far as ability too IMO.

 

IMO Ali of 1967 beats any heavyweight champion who ever set foot in the ring. That Ali was too slick and speedy for Lewis or anybody else.

 

Exactly , Doug Jones took Clay's 0.
Just watched it today , Jones did not lose that fight .

 

ali wins this fight clearly but with a fair share of work. ali did not have 1 punch ko power, lewis had at least an average chin, and i think lewis had heart. so an ali ko is out of the question. lewis' best asset was his power but ali's chin & recuperative abilities were legendary. lewis is going to need his boxing ability which by itself is not that great. looks good against david tua but not against mercer with whom power is out of the equation. ali has much better boxing ability & much better jab. i expect ali to win at least 8 of the 12 rounds in a UD. lewis is in the fight throughout because of his size, intelligence, supplemental boxing ability, and confidence but ali wins clearly. lewis may have some moments with his awesome power.

ali wins ud 8 rounds to 4.