Lennox Lewis, Greatest Heavyweight of all time

:yep :good


(satisfying answer but part of me was sort of hoping you would take a stab at wrangling a dialectic in favor of Ol' Super Brian...)

 

My position is not quite that ridiculous.

As I said, it depends on the criteria you're using. Any criteria that would rate Esch as the #1 heavyweight of all time and still be intellectually consistent would be...unusual. It would demonstrate a very alien conception of what boxing means.

EDIT: Sniped. :good

 

"Accomplishments" rest on speculative head-to-head comparisons as well, if you think about it. Just a little less so.

Why was beating Jerry Quarry more impressive than beating a journeyman? Because Quarry was ranked in the RING Top 10.

So why was Quarry ranked in the RING Top 10 in the first place? Because the magazine's publishers believed that he would beat most people ranked outside the Top 10 head-to-head.

 

It's...tempting. :think

 

But Jerry Quarry was actually beating contenders as well, so his rating was justified partly on that, and not just speculation.

 

Ah, but why are those "contenders" rated as contenders? Because the ratings orgs decided that each contender's record/performances suggested that he was one of the ten best heavyweights in the world, head-to-head.

To put it another way: Assuming zero corruption (ha!), what does it mean to get ranked in the RING top 10? Or the IBF top 10? Or the NY belt's top 10? It means that you're supposed to be one of the best heavyweights in the world. That you can beat most fighters outside the top 10.

How do the raters decide that? They do the same thing that we do for fantasy matchups -- eyeball the fighter's record and fight tapes, and decide how "good" he probably is.

 

There's a little more to it than that though. Rating a fighter within a particular era, is also based by his actual performance within that era. Hence actually beating fighters who are active during that time. There may be a tad bit of speculation involved, but the criteria is a bit more concrete than say, rating either Bob Pastor or Jerry Quarry higher than the other on all time list of contenders.

 

The best ? No... Two KO losses to very mediocre heavyweights have to be factored in,plus Ray Mercer beat him ( bad scorecards) He was an excellent ring technician, with great power in his right hand. Steward really polished him up and made him an expert at fighting `big`. But, his chin would leave him possibly vulnerable to some other ATG punchers from the past. I think prime Ali and Holmes beat with their superior jab and footwork. Rahman and McCall got to him, isn`t it reasonable to think that a snarling, young George Foreman gets to him as well ? He`s up there though, 5-7... And he beats both Klitchko`s too !

 

If there is one thing that can be said about Rahman and McCall is that they both hit very, very hard. I wonder what the records of other great heavies would look like if they had to face in their careers a line up that included Ruddock, Morrison, Mason, Grant, Golota, Briggs, Rahman, McCall, Bruno, Tua, et al… These weren't just some spindly, undernourished guys off the bread line. For whatever flaws they possessed, each hit with elite heavyweight power. And it's not just size but style. Not only were the heavies of the 90's giants compared to other eras but they were made largely in the power hitting mold….

Now begin the discussion wherein I am convinced that the average elite 180 pounder hits harder than the average elite 225 pounder...

 

No .

That title belongs to Cassius Clay .

 

No.

 

Now I wasn`t going there with the Marciano hit harder than 225 and above... What I am saying (however) is that I don`t consider McCall and Rahman to be `elite` hitters, good ones yes. So, in analyzing Lewis you have to take his chin into the equation and I stand by my statement about Ali and Holmes. Both had similar reach( I believe) and both Ali and Holmes had FAR superior speed (yes far superior) ,much better footwork, chins and they matched up well in the size department as well. Prime Foreman, Ali and Holmes beat Lewis in their respective primes ...IMO

 

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Foreman
Jack Johnson

all better

 

Where not going down the road of poor Lewis had two premature stoppages are we ?? And do we really want to compare the punching power of McCall/Rahman to Earnie Shavers ? I thought the `long count` was a Dempsey/Tunney reference ? Clay gets dropped early in his career (Banks,Cooper) comes back stops them both. And then proceeds to demonstrate the BEST chin of heavyweight champs the rest of his career... There is no way Lewis was coming back against Rahman or McCall. In fact he was waving at the ref ( a hello maybe ? ) when Rahman sent him screeching to the deck ! Shavers hits Lewis with the right hand landed on Holmes, and Lewis would still be laying down