Lennox Lewis inducted into hall of fame.

Lennox was a hell of a fighter....my favs from him are Ruddock, Mercer, Rachman II, and Briggs....nothing beats that blast he landed on Rachman in the rematch....congrats to Lennox!

 

This picks up on my last post, and dovetails well with it. How is "quality" determined?? Personally, it seems to me - and I followed the era closely, start to finish - that the fighters in Lewis's era were quite ordinary, outside of Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe and perhaps Moorer, Ruddock or Mercer at the next level.

And surely you don't suggest that KO percentage, by itself, proves a fighter is a "puncher?" So, if some guy knocked out 20 of 20 stiffs and then never won another fight, this makes him Earnie Shavers?? This reminds me of all the people who like to trumpet Vitali Klitschko's misleading KO percentage as if it means something.

I'm sure it's all interesting to investigate - as an educator I'm a big believer in knowledge - but in terms of "proving" anything about who's a better fighter, it's pretty useless, frankly. As with research generally, quanitification often obscures and distorts as much as it reveals. But to its devotes', it's like the Rosetta Stone. I beg to differ.

 

Your worship of Holy is one of the few things where I think you take away all of the logic you apply to most other things in life....

But yes, everything is subjective when assessing the merits of fighters.

You put emphasis on Bowe's ability to make Holy look good (even though he lost the series) - even though Bowe's rep as a top level fighter is based practically entirely on what? Beating Holy!!!!

Holy gets too many "free passes" IMO when most people assess him and his achievements. Lewis gets slated for 2 - admittedly poor losses.

Holy get's practically a free pass for losing to Bowe twice, because it was Bowe. And why's Bowe good again? Because he beat Holy...

Then the Moorer loss. (what was it again? Heart problems? Hepatitis? I cant remember now)

Then the Lewis losses. (draw my ass). Holy was 'too old' so the losses don't really count. But he did well, so therefore he would have won if he was younger.....

Ruiz? Oh yeah, he was old then too. Still count the fact he won one, but he was old, so the loss, draw and KD don't really count either.

Fighting 2 guys that were ancient when at his peak. That's ok though. Foreman won the title later.
Against Moorer. And who did Moorer beat... Holy! So that's all OK then.

Holy's given credit for beating Tyson (but wasn't holy past prime... what does that make Tyson then? NO, Holy wasn't past prime then, but he was when losing to Lewis.. ok then.....) but Lewis isn't....

(personally IMO Tyson did nothing before facing Holy to prepare him for that fight. And why did he fight Holy?? Because his advisors said Holy was far less dangerous than Lewis..... )


So yeah, you're right. It's all very subjective.

 

Okay, I'll take a stab at this one. First of all, his victories over Corbett and Fitzsimmons are better quality opponents than anyone of Lewis's resume (with Holyfield and Tyson excluded). True, they were both past their prime, and Corbett had been inactive (although inactivity was more the norm back then, largely because of boxing's quasi-outlaw status), but they were still quality opponents - particularly Fitzsimmons, who although older than Corbett, went on to win the LHW title AFTER he faced Jeffries. A case could be made that these guys are better than the versions of Holyfield and Tyson Lewis faced, even.

Jackson was significantly past his prime, and very inactive, but I would argue still a higher quality opponent than someone like Gary Mason, and on a par with most of the rest of the guys on Lewis's ledger. And Jeffries disposed of him in convincing fashion.

Choynski and Sharkey were top level contenders, particularly Choynski, who went on to stop Jack Johnson after his loss to Jeffries. Gus Ruhlin, and Joe Goddard were also decent contenders who fought a who's who of the era. All of these guys are better than most of the guys on Lewis record, and Choynski is clearly better than any of them, imo. And again, Jeffries disposed of most of these guys VERY decisively.

IMO, Jeffries has three opponents - Fitzsimmons, Corbett, and Choynski, who are clearly better than any of the guys Lewis beat, and several others - Sharkey, Ruhlin and Goddard - who are at least as good, if not better. Peter Jackson would clearly also be better, depending on how far gone you consider him to have been. I'd say, as he was, he's comparable to most of the guys Lewis faced. And, points have to be given to Jeffries for the defintive nature of the victories.

I'd say overall, it's pretty clear that Jeffries resume should be given the nod.

 

That's a pretty good quote Haggis, and totally accurate.

 

Something tells me this stupid discussion with Zakman has already been done to death.

 

Name me 10 better.

 

Lennox got in in his first year of eligibility, great stuff.
A wonderful and fully deserved honour.

I was looking back through some old articles, and stumbled across one from one of Lewis's most vocal critics, ol' Ron Borges. Around May '96, and he's basically outright calling Lewis a "coward", "not a fighter" and painting the Mercer win as an outright robbery. If you'd told him that Lewis was a future IBHOF member he'd have laughed in your face then written another long article complaining about Lewis. He literally spent over a decade deriding everything Lewis did.

What do I see a couple months ago, on TheSweetScience.com? An article from Borges, 'Lewis still the champ', lamenting the loss of great fighters like Lewis in the heavyweight division.

Boxing journos can be so funny. After so many years of guys like Borges and others (like Wally Matthews) taking repeated shots and cheap jibes and even outright lies at Lewis's expense, to see him ultimately become a Hall of Famer is sweet.

And I'd really love to see Holyfield making the class of 2014, if you catch my drift.

 

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Marciano
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Frazier

 

deserved.

 

Hell yeah, every few months it pops up, and all my friends - sandman, vanboxingfan, Fighting Weight, Damon, McGrain and the gang - always reliably show up for the party! Good guys all, and fun to spar with on the Lewis issue! :good

And, let me clear about one thing - Lewis deserves first ballot induction in to the Hall. He's a no-doubt-about HOFer, unlike many of the guys they got in there - and a great fighter. Just not quite as great as some of my sparring partners seem to think!

 

Justly deserved.

I always think back to when lennox had that pre fight brawl with Rahman in the TV studio.....TV gold.

Didn`t relise just how much Lennox would be missed from boxing.

 

Agreed. Congrats, LL.

IMO,
TBE

 

Funny how Lewis KO's at least 7 people on that list... Ugly.

IMO,
TBE