Lennox Lewis v Jim Jeffries

Seamus · Nov 9, 2011

janitor said: ↑

The orthodoxy in favour of Lewis, is based almost entirely upon the uncertainty about how Jeffries would fare against a fighter of that type. It is an uncertainty which cuts both ways by definition.

Jeffries would be able to bring some things to the table that Lewis had not seen before, and that should be factored into predictions.
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By that type, do you mean an athletic super heavyweight with superior strength, length and skill, groomed from adolescence from evolved amateur programs, to a well-designed professional career with the experience of 44 fights most at the highest level of the division?

Jeff seems to have crafted his style to keep smaller, weaker opponents at bay and wear them down. I just don't see how he would last long enough for his approach to take a toll on Lewis.

SuzieQ49 · Nov 9, 2011

How long do you think 165lb Choynski, 5'8 173lb Sharkey, and 167lb Fitzsimmons would have lasted against Lennox Lewis?

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TartanSoldier · Nov 10, 2011

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

How long do you think 165lb Choynski, 5'8 173lb Sharkey, and 167lb Fitzsimmons would have lasted against Lennox Lewis?

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My coach would shout at me for doing crazy **** like that in the first picture and I'm by no means a high level fighter.

You still have to respect their accomplishments though.

Ylem · Nov 10, 2011

TartanSoldier said: ↑

My coach would shout at me for doing crazy **** like that in the first picture and I'm by no means a high level fighter.

You still have to respect their accomplishments though.
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fighting with the stance of the old masters allows for incredible balance when leaning back.

try it, point your right foot to the right and your left foot forward lean back and bend your right leg to drop your center of gravity and youll find you still have excelent balance.

your coach would shout at you for doing stuff like that, but im sure your stance is not that of the old masters, so infact it would be quite stupid to do stuff like that.

and as far as the OP Fitz would destroy Lewis any rules, and i see a prime jeffries koing lewis at round 18 in a match of 20 rounds.

modern day rules lewis would probly win unaminiously

TartanSoldier · Nov 10, 2011

Ylem said: ↑

fighting with the stance of the old masters allows for incredible balance when leaning back.

try it, point your right foot to the right and your left foot forward lean back and bend your right leg to drop your center of gravity and youll find you still have excelent balance.

your coach would shout at you for doing stuff like that, but im sure your stance is not that of the old masters, so infact it would be quite stupid to do stuff like that.
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Yeah I have the feet pointed about 45 degrees and almost parallel.

I just tried the L stance there and you're right enough! I'm sure it was Jack Johnson who said he found that stance to be the best one out of all the ones he had tested.

Ylem · Nov 10, 2011

TartanSoldier said: ↑

Yeah I have the feet pointed about 45 degrees and almost parallel.

I just tried the L stance there and you're right enough! I'm sure it was Jack Johnson who said he found that stance to be the best one out of all the ones he had tested.
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http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jack_johnson.html

Abe Attell said that Johnson fought out of the perfect stance. This stance, with the front foot pointed forward, was what heavyweight champion Jack Johnson called, the key to real scientific boxing (Ring, April 1941, 16). He noted that the purpose of that stance is that by simply moving the right rear foot, one can move, shift, and pivot in such away as to avoid a blow and always be in perfect position to counter with the full force of ones body behind the blow.
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PowerPuncher · Nov 10, 2011

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

How long do you think 165lb Choynski, 5'8 173lb Sharkey, and 167lb Fitzsimmons would have lasted against Lennox Lewis?

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:rofl This thread is comedy gold

mcvey · Nov 10, 2011

he grant said: ↑

We have never seen Jeffries in the ring with anything close to Lennox Lewis while Lewis has fought many men in a physical mold like Jeffries .. it would definitely tell us how good Jeffries chin was ... if it was as advertised he loses like Mercer ... if not he could lose like Golota or Morrison ...
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Sensible view .

Jeffries biggest opponent, [ by an appreciable amount,] as champ, was 6'2", 200lbs Ruhlin, he spent the 5 rounds he was fighting, back pedalling.

Jeffries opponents as champ scaled an average of 184lbs.

Of his 9 challengers, only 4 were 6" or over.
Ruhlin and Kennedy being the tallest at 6'2".

From Ruddock onwards, Lewis's opponents scaled an average 233lbs. His smallest opponents were 215/217lbs,15 lbs more than any of Jeffries opponents, and as big as Jeffries himself.

Point being ,Jeffries was used to having every physical advantage over his opponents, including ,very often age, and activity.

We don't know how he would fare against a bigger heavier ,more skilled ,harder hitting man in his prime, but the prognosis is not good.

If Jeffries attacks he gets hammered.
If he stays off and boxes, he gets outclassed ,and jabbed to death.

I would expect him to be stopped around the mid stages probably by tko.

Even if his chin held up, his facial tissue would not.

DamonD · Nov 10, 2011

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

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I sorely wish they'd let guys fight looking like the guy on the right.
A level of class, perhaps with a hat too.

mr. magoo · Nov 10, 2011

SuzieQ49 said: ↑

How long do you think 165lb Choynski, 5'8 173lb Sharkey, and 167lb Fitzsimmons would have lasted against Lennox Lewis?

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I know that I said that I would stay away from threads like these, but I simply can't help but comment on the fact that these guys look like middle aged bankers.

he grant · Nov 10, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

Sensible view .

Jeffries biggest opponent, [ by an appreciable amount,] as champ, was 6'2", 200lbs Ruhlin, he spent the 5 rounds he was fighting, back pedalling.

Jeffries opponents as champ scaled an average of 184lbs.

Of his 9 challengers, only 4 were 6" or over.
Ruhlin and Kennedy being the tallest at 6'2".

From Ruddock onwards, Lewis's opponents scaled an average 233lbs. His smallest opponents were 215/217lbs,15 lbs more than any of Jeffries opponents, and as big as Jeffries himself.

Point being ,Jeffries was used to having every physical advantage over his opponents, including ,very often age, and activity.

We don't know how he would fare against a bigger heavier ,more skilled ,harder hitting man in his prime, but the prognosis is not good.

If Jeffries attacks he gets hammered.
If he stays off and boxes, he gets outclassed ,and jabbed to death.

I would expect him to be stopped around the mid stages probably by tko.

Even if his chin held up, his facial tissue would not.
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Can't argue this one a bit (damn!!!)

DonBoxer · Nov 10, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

Sensible view .

Jeffries biggest opponent, [ by an appreciable amount,] as champ, was 6'2", 200lbs Ruhlin, he spent the 5 rounds he was fighting, back pedalling.

Jeffries opponents as champ scaled an average of 184lbs.

Of his 9 challengers, only 4 were 6" or over.
Ruhlin and Kennedy being the tallest at 6'2".

From Ruddock onwards, Lewis's opponents scaled an average 233lbs. His smallest opponents were 215/217lbs,15 lbs more than any of Jeffries opponents, and as big as Jeffries himself.

Point being ,Jeffries was used to having every physical advantage over his opponents, including ,very often age, and activity.

We don't know how he would fare against a bigger heavier ,more skilled ,harder hitting man in his prime, but the prognosis is not good.

If Jeffries attacks he gets hammered.
If he stays off and boxes, he gets outclassed ,and jabbed to death.

I would expect him to be stopped around the mid stages probably by tko.

Even if his chin held up, his facial tissue would not.
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Great analysis.:thumbsup

mcvey · Nov 10, 2011

he grant said: ↑

Can't argue this one a bit (damn!!!)
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Sometimes life's a ***** ,aint it?

janitor · Nov 10, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

I would be interested to see your elaboration ,of what Jeffries would bring to the table that Lewis would not have seen before.
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I am not disputing that Lewis would bring something to the table that Jeffries had never seen before, but is it right therfore to assume that Jeffries crumbles under his assult?

I somtimes get condemned for sitting on the fence, and not endorsing a strong pick in favour of the orthodoxy. Remember this though. There is rarely a more foolish voice in any fantast debate than the one who says "N fighter KO1"

Jeffries carried his left hand low. = Lewis's best punch is his right cross.
Jeffries lack of defence, more often than not, got his face seriously busted up in his major fights. = Lewis had a very good jab that was 84"
Jeffries best punch was his left hook, usually to the body= Lewis took many big shots to the body without showing any reaction.

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Much depends on your interpretation of Jeffries defence, and I think it is fair to say that we have reached different conclusions.

Jeffries had a significant weight advantage in all his fights ,on average 34lbs for his defences.= Lewis is 30lbs heavier.
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This is a big consideration for me.

I was able to pick Jack Dempsey over Lennox Lewis based on his outstanding track record against inferior men of similar size and style. I have taken no such liberty with Jeffries due to the lack of suporting data.

Few people wanted to see Jeffries fight the bigger Sandy Ferguson, because they feared that it would be a mismatch. In hindsight, Jeffries should have taken the fight and killed Ferguson, to give a misguided boost to his legacy further down the line. He should have killed Dunkhorts, Jeffords, and Russel while he was at it. Preferably all three in the same night.

Legacies only get built on size in hindsight.

Jeffries was stronger than his opponents and gradually wore them down= Lewis is at least 4 inches taller ,30lbs bigger and NO ONE has ever outmuscled him ,and this includes GIANTS.
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You have personaly disputed the idea that Jeffries outmuscled his opponents.

He was clearly an atrittion fighter however.

Jeffries never met a man bigger than himself= see last post.

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Because there was none worth him fighting.

If I went back in time, and the ATGs asked me for legacy advice, I would say "beat up some poor overmatched 260 pounder".

Then you will get respect in the 21st century!

Put ANY of Jeffries title challengers into a ring with a prime Lewis ,and tell me how many , [if any,] go more than 5rds?

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Perhaps most of them.

Lewis rarely worried about getting people out of there inside five rounds.

The one fight that could have proved something is Lewis Byrd, but it never happened.

It might be a future irony of history that Lewis is acused of ducking Byrd, and criticised for not meeting more small technical fighters.

Now, tell me what Jeffries brings to the table?
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What Jeffries would bring to the table, is that he would have probably have been faster than the big guys Lewis had fought previously, and a bit more technicaly astute. He would have been as durable as the best of them.

At the verry least, he was probably better than Hasim Ramhan, which means that he should not be discounted altogether.
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mcvey · Nov 10, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I am not disputing that Lewis would bring something to the table that Jeffries had never seen before, but is it right therfore to assume that Jeffries crumbles under his assult?

I somtimes get condemned for sitting on the fence, and not endorsing a strong pick in favour of the orthodoxy. Remember this though. There is rarely a more foolish voice in any fantast debate than the one who says "N fighter KO1"

Much depends on your interpretation of Jeffries defence, and I think it is fair to say that we have reached different conclusions.

This is a big consideration for me.

I was able to pick Jack Dempsey over Lennox Lewis based on his outstanding track record against inferior men of similar size and style. I have taken no such liberty with Jeffries due to the lack of suporting data.

Few people wanted to see Jeffries fight the bigger Sandy Ferguson, because they feared that it would be a mismatch. In hindsight, Jeffries should have taken the fight and killed Ferguson, to give a misguided boost to his legacy further down the line. He should have killed Dunkhorts, Jeffords, and Russel while he was at it. Preferably all three in the same night.

Legacies only get built on size in hindsight.

You have personaly disputed the idea that Jeffries outmuscled his opponents.

He was clearly an atrittion fighter however.

Because there was none worth him fighting.

If I went back in time, and the ATGs asked me for legacy advice, I would say "beat up some poor overmatched 260 pounder".

Then you will get respect in the 21st century!

Perhaps most of them.

Lewis rarely worried about getting people out of there inside five rounds.

The one fight that could have proved something is Lewis Byrd, but it never happened.

It might be a future irony of history that Lewis is acused of ducking Byrd, and criticised for not meeting more small technical fighters.

What Jeffries would bring to the table, is that he would have probably have been faster than the big guys Lewis had fought previously, and a bit more technicaly astute. He would have been as durable as the best of them.

At the verry least, he was probably better than Hasim Ramhan, which means that he should not be discounted altogether.
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Nowhere have I said Jeffries crumbles under Lewis's assault.
I said a tko was likely.

Nowhere did I suggest that Lewis kos Jeffries in any round let alone the first one.

I reached my interpretation of Jeffries defence after reading of the amount of damage he sustained in fights with men between 40 and 60 pounds lighter than himself ,one of whom broke his nose , gave him deep gashes under both eyes ,and cut his scalp so deep, that the skull could be seen through it.
That man was 39 years old and weighed 172lbs , further more he had been retired for two years.

I have personally disputed that Jeffries out muscled opponents ,quite true, and no one has produced any proof to the contrary. Outmuscling opponents is not the equivalent of being strong.

No one doubts that Jeffries was strong, and durable, my contention was,and is ,that he did not use this strength effectively in the ring. Lewis did.

The fights that would have proved the most for Lewis would have been those against a primeTyson ,and Riddick Bowe,the fact that they did not happen was not Lewis's fault.

I think of all the heavyweight champions Lewis is the one who knockers have the least substance to suggest avoided a challenger.

What evidence have you that Jeffries was faster than ANY of Lewis's challengers?
Jeffries would not have been a big guy against Lewis ,he would have been in with the Phil Jacksons' and Evander Holyfield's for size,ie a small challenger.

The only fight report I have been able to find that gives Jeffries any credit for technical ability of any kind ,was against A 36 years old ,totally shot Jim Corbett, who had been retired for 3 years.
That Corbett would not last 2 rounds with Lennox,imo.

I therefore think it safe to assume that he would have no advantage over Lewis's challengers ,as far as boxing acumen goes.

Jeffries durability against super heavyweigths with heavy duty power has to be taken on trust, my gut feeling is that he had a top notch chin ,but in all honesty the jury is still out.

J, you did your best putting a case ,but honestly ,I think you are on a hiding to nothing in this scrap.
Similar to James Jackson Jeffries really.
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