Lennox Lewis v Jim Jeffries

Seamus · Nov 10, 2011

Good work, McVey.

janitor · Nov 11, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Nowhere have I said Jeffreis crumbles under Lewis's assault.
I said a tko was likely.

Nowhwere did I suggest that Lewis kos Jeffries in any round let alone the first one.

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These observations were directed at the board in general.

I reached my interpretation of Jeffries defence after reading of the amount of damage he sustained in fights with men between 40 and 60 pounds lighter than himself ,one of whom broke his nose , gave him deep gashes under both eyes ,and cut his scalp so deep, that the skull could be seen through it.
That man was 39 years old and weighed 172lbs , further more he had been retired for two years.

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That is a prety good argument for Jeffries having problems with smal technical fighters, but not necisarily an argument for him faring badly against bigger fighters.

It might be that he would have found people bigger than himself easier to chop down.

You just don't know.

The fights that would have proved the most for Lewis would have been those against a primeTyson ,and Riddick Bowe,the fact that they did not happen was not Lewis's fault.

I think of all the heavyweight champions Lewis is the one who knockers have the least sustance to suggest avoided a challenger.

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I did not mean to directly acuse Lewis of ducking Byrd, but I wish they had fought just to see how Lewis would have handeled Byrd.

What evidence have you that Jeffries was faster than ANY of Lewis's challengers?
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Looking at the training footage, I don't think there have been many 220 pounders with that sort of speed and co ordination.

Jeffries would not have been a big guy against Lewis ,he would have been in with the Phil Jacksons' and Evander Holyfield's for size,ie a small challenger.
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Was Ray Mercer any bigger than Jeffries?

The only fight report I have been able to find that gives Jeffries any credit for technical ability of any kind ,was against A 36 years old ,totally shot Jim Corbett, who had been retired for 3 years.
That Corbett would not last 2 rounds with Lennox,imo.

I therefore think it safe to assume that he would have no advantage over Lewis's challengers ,as far as boxing acumen goes.

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I could bring a few more to the table.

Jeffries durability against super heavyweigths with heavy duty power has to be taken on trust, my gut feeling is that he had a top notch chin ,but in all honesty the jury is still out.

J, you did your best putting a case ,but honestly ,I think you are on a hiding to nothing in this scrap.
Similar to James Jackson Jeffries really.

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I see a bit of a case of history repeating itself here. The acolades thrust upon Lewis at the moment, are strikingly similar to those offered up to James Jackson Jeffries in the aftermath of his retirment, even down to hte arguments.

I could just change the dates and swap the names.
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red cobra · Nov 11, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

Why bother ?
Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing ?
Discussing and, comparing fighters that are from past era's?

For the record I think Lewis beats Johnson ,and I said so in my other Lewis thread.
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I think Lewis beats either Jeffries or Johnson..he could have decisioned either or knocked them out, depending on which approach he took.

mcvey · Nov 11, 2011

janitor said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

These observations were directed at the board in general.

That is a prety good argument for Jeffries having problems with smal technical fighters, but not necisarily an argument for him faring badly against bigger fighters.

It might be that he would have found people bigger than himself easier to chop down.

You just don't know.

I did not mean to directly acuse Lewis of ducking Byrd, but I wish they had fought just to see how Lewis would have handeled Byrd.

Looking at the training footage, I don't think there have been many 220 pounders with that sort of speed and co ordination.

Was Ray Mercer any bigger than Jeffries?

I could bring a few more to the table.

I see a bit of a case of history repeating itself here. The acolades thrust upon Lewis at the moment, are strikingly similar to those offered up to James Jackson Jeffries in the aftermath of his retirment, even down to hte arguments.

I could just change the dates and swap the names.
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I'm not attacking you J ,I respect you as a poster ,but I am questioning your argument.

Choynski and Fitz ripped punch after punch into Jeffries face ,what evidence leads you to believe that either were better boxers than Lewis , who would have over a foot reach advantage over them?

A 33 years old Corbett who had been retired for 2 years and, had not won a fight for 4 years, and that over the 165lbs Charlie Mitchell, ran rings around Jeffries.

Despite a poster averring the Jeffries Corbett first fight was close, newspaper reports state Corbett was well in front ,and could only lose by a ko.

Jeffries did well to get it in the 23rd round ,but that is a long time to be outclassed ,and outboxed by a man past his prime who at 188lbs , weighed 30lbs less than Jeffries.

Jeffries own corner men told him he needed a ko to keep his title.

Jeffries was not a clever boxer ,and never became one, the idea that he would be superior to Lewis's challengers in boxing ability, is at best supposition ,at worst wishful thinking.

From the extant footage and from fight reports , Jeffries had two modes of fighting , he sat back and waited to counter his opponent with left hand smashes to the body, then ,when they were suitably worn down, he went for the quietus.
His other method was that of a stalker,as we saw against Ruhlin he tries to walk Gus down but it is clear that Ruhlin is the fleeter afoot, eventually he gets cornered ,and a booming left cracks his ribs this may be Jeffries most impressive fight ,he initiates the action at all times.. Ruhlin however, is very negative throughout ,contenting himself with passive evasive action,and he was castigated for his sub- par performance.

The training footage of Jeffries does not reflect how he fought.

I believe there are second rate 220 pound heavweights who can skip rope ,shadow box ,etc as good, or better than Jeffries ,I honestly see nothing remarkable about his training footage.
Ray Mercer LOST to Lewis.

Mercer would have a very live chance of stopping Sharkey imo, something Jeffries could not do in 45 rounds of combat.
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Boilermaker · Nov 11, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

I'm not attacking you J ,I respect you as a poster ,but I am questioning your argument.

Choynski and Fitz ripped punch after punch into Jeffries face ,what evidence leads you to believe that either were better boxers than Lewis , who would have over a foot reach advantage over them?

A 33 years old Corbett who had been retired for 2 years and, had not won a fight for 4 years, and that over the 165lbs Charlie Mitchell, ran rings around Jeffries.

Despite a poster averring the Jeffries Corbett first fight was close, newspaper reports state Corbett was well in front ,and could only lose by a ko.

Jeffries did well to get it in the 23rd round ,but that is a long time to be outclassed ,and outboxed by a man past his prime who at 188lbs , weighed 30lbs less than Jeffries.

Jeffries own corner men told him he needed a ko to keep his title.

Jeffries was not a clever boxer ,and never became one, the idea that he would be superior to Lewis's challengers in boxing ability, is at best supposition ,at worst wishful thinking.

From the extant footage and from fight reports , Jeffries had two modes of fighting , he sat back and waited to counter his opponent with left hand smashes to the body, then ,when they were suitably worn down, he went for the quietus.
His other method was that of a stalker,as we saw against Ruhlin he tries to walk Gus down but it is clear that Ruhlin is the fleeter afoot, eventually he gets cornered ,and a booming left cracks his ribs this may be Jeffries most impressive fight ,he initiates the action at all times.. Ruhlin however, is very negative throughout ,contenting himself with passive evasive action,and he was castigated for his sub- par performance.

The training footage of Jeffries does not reflect how he fought.

I believe there are second rate 220 pound heavweights who can skip rope ,shadow box ,etc as good, or better than Jeffries ,I honestly see nothing remarkable about his training footage.
Ray Mercer LOST to Lewis.

Mercer would have a very live chance of stopping Sharkey imo, something Jeffries could not do in 45 rounds of combat.
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Fitz and Choynski really have nothing in common with Lewis stylewise. Corbett and Lewis are very, very similar stylewise. Both had Good power and outside and inside boxing skills. Corbett was probably a lot qicker but this is offset by Lewis having better reach advantages. Both seemed to have similar chins, that could take plenty of punishment most of the time, but were breakable if caught clean. Lewis also seemed to hit harder, although Corbett is underated nowadays compared to what he was. He still hit really hard. And Lennox was much easier to hit clean than Corbett was.

All things considered the one thing we do know for sure, is that if it is a KO1, it is not Lewis that has one the fight. At least not based on what actually happened in both their fights. I think this would be a very good fight, closer than some corbett Jeffries opinions, because Lewis is mich easeier to hit, but just as difficult. I guess the biggest question mark is how does Lennox hold up after 15 rounds. I dont really subscribe to the theory that modern fighters would collapse just because they have never done it before. But, in this case, I do think that Jeffries would be comming on strong, very strong. Lewis' best chance is the early KO and i think that at worst, Jeffries is capable of surviving like a mercer, Tua, or Bruno. I think he can make it a very close fight, and the liberal clinch would really destroy Lennox. Jefffries wins a close fight by KO in the later rounds.
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Seamus · Nov 11, 2011

Boilermaker said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Fitz and Choynski really have nothing in common with Lewis stylewise. Corbett and Lewis are very, very similar stylewise. Both had Good power and outside and inside boxing skills. Corbett was probably a lot qicker but this is offset by Lewis having better reach advantages. Both seemed to have similar chins, that could take plenty of punishment most of the time, but were breakable if caught clean. Lewis also seemed to hit harder, although Corbett is underated nowadays compared to what he was. He still hit really hard. And Lennox was much easier to hit clean than Corbett was.

All things considered the one thing we do know for sure, is that if it is a KO1, it is not Lewis that has one the fight. At least not based on what actually happened in both their fights. I think this would be a very good fight, closer than some corbett Jeffries opinions, because Lewis is mich easeier to hit, but just as difficult. I guess the biggest question mark is how does Lennox hold up after 15 rounds. I dont really subscribe to the theory that modern fighters would collapse just because they have never done it before. But, in this case, I do think that Jeffries would be comming on strong, very strong. Lewis' best chance is the early KO and i think that at worst, Jeffries is capable of surviving like a mercer, Tua, or Bruno. I think he can make it a very close fight, and the liberal clinch would really destroy Lennox. Jefffries wins a close fight by KO in the later rounds.
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When was Jeffries every tested by a puncher with the strength, power and output of Lewis? Do you seriously think Choynski or Sharkey punched as hard as Lewis? Do you deny that a skilled 235 lb fighter punches harder than a 170 or 180 lb fighter? If you do deny this, why do we even bother with weight divisions. There is no precedent for Jeffries surviving the kind of power Lewis possessed. Conversely, the monsters that Lewis had to endure dwarf the opponents who busted up Jeffries... Ruddock, Morrison, Tua, Tyson, Grant, Vitali, etc... These guys punched on a level that is geometrically greater than the super middles of the 1890's. Lewis survived those guys to KO all but Tua, whom he thumped badly.

If the ref and Jeffries' corner have zero empathy, Jeffries gets a career ending beating within 6 rounds. Utterly inhumane.
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janitor · Nov 11, 2011

mcvey said: ↑

I'm not attacking you J ,I respect you as a poster ,but I am questioning your argument.

Choynski and Fitz ripped punch after punch into Jeffries face ,what evidence leads you to believe that either were better boxers than Lewis , who would have over a foot reach advantage over them?

A 33 years old Corbett who had been retired for 2 years and, had not won a fight for 4 years, and that over the 165lbs Charlie Mitchell, ran rings around Jeffries.

Despite a poster averring the Jeffries Corbett first fight was close, newspaper reports state Corbett was well in front ,and could only lose by a ko.

Jeffries did well to get it in the 23rd round ,but that is a long time to be outclassed ,and outboxed by a man past his prime who at 188lbs , weighed 30lbs less than Jeffries.

Jeffries own corner men told him he needed a ko to keep his title.

Jeffries was not a clever boxer ,and never became one, the idea that he would be superior to Lewis's challengers in boxing ability, is at best supposition ,at worst wishful thinking.

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I have never been a fan of the logic that big heavyweights would have sucess against sombody because smaller heavyweights did. There have clearly been a lot of champion who struggled with smaller technicians, but did well against bigger fighters. Such fights as Jeffries had against fighters his own size suggests that he might have been one of them.

I also see the fights that you see as being damaging to Jeffries in a verry different light. The fights that he is criticised most for, he should be lauded for with a modicum of context.

Jeffries improved his boxing technique considerably after he came under the tutelage of Bob Fitzsimmons. By the time of the Munroe fight he was probably as good a technician as anybody outside of specialists such as Johnson.
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SuzieQ49 · Nov 11, 2011

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mcvey · Nov 11, 2011

Boilermaker said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Fitz and Choynski really have nothing in common with Lewis stylewise. Corbett and Lewis are very, very similar stylewise. Both had Good power and outside and inside boxing skills. Corbett was probably a lot qicker but this is offset by Lewis having better reach advantages. Both seemed to have similar chins, that could take plenty of punishment most of the time, but were breakable if caught clean. Lewis also seemed to hit harder, although Corbett is underated nowadays compared to what he was. He still hit really hard. And Lennox was much easier to hit clean than Corbett was.

All things considered the one thing we do know for sure, is that if it is a KO1, it is not Lewis that has one the fight. At least not based on what actually happened in both their fights. I think this would be a very good fight, closer than some corbett Jeffries opinions, because Lewis is mich easeier to hit, but just as difficult. I guess the biggest question mark is how does Lennox hold up after 15 rounds. I dont really subscribe to the theory that modern fighters would collapse just because they have never done it before. But, in this case, I do think that Jeffries would be comming on strong, very strong. Lewis' best chance is the early KO and i think that at worst, Jeffries is capable of surviving like a mercer, Tua, or Bruno. I think he can make it a very close fight, and the liberal clinch would really destroy Lennox. Jefffries wins a close fight by KO in the later rounds.
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I did not suggest that Choynski and Fitz were in any way similar to Lewis.
Choynski was 80 pounds lighter,Fitz 70lbs lighter.

I used them for purposes of comparison concerning the amount of damage they inflicted on Jeffries,and asked if they could be considered to be more skillful boxers than Lewis?

I see no similarities between Corbett and Lewis.:huh
Corbett was a mobile, in and out boxer ,the original "Fancy Dan", he had moderate power and rarely engaged in close quarter fighting. Lewis ,in comparison to Corbett, was leaden footed, he was often not content to play the countering boxer, and several times went after his man with ko intentions .

Lewis had heavy duty power ,capable of dropping ANYONE .

Corbett did not. Corbett was counted out by one punch to the midriff.

Watch Lewis take Holyfield's and Vitali's shots to the body ,without visible reaction , either of them would have cut Corbett in half.

Corbett was quicker than Lewis ,which is not surprising, considering he was nearly 60 pounds lighter.

Corbett 's chin was never anywhere near Lewis's .

Lewis was kod by two heavy right hand bangers ,both of whom would have put Corbett to sleep for a week had they landed on him.

Mercer had an iron chin probably as good as Jeffries ,and certainly more tested.

Tua,after sampling a couple of rights settled into survival mode and did not fight to win. He would cleanup against Choynski and Sharkey ,imo.

Bruno did not survive against Lewis ,he was stopped.

Lewis seemed to hit harder ? Is there an iota of doubt about it?

Who did Corbett ko? A totally washed up ,34 years old Sullivan? And that took him 21rounds.
Corbett 's ko percentage is under 21% Lewis 's is nearly 73%

If it goes only one round it won't be Lewis winning?

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Lewis is the harder hitter, and kod giants. Several men under 180lbs went the distance with Jeffries.
No one less than 214lbs ,ever went the route with Lewis.

Corbett would be doing well to go six rounds with a prime Lewis.

I don't think the longer distance would become a factor,simply because I do not think Jeffries could take the punishment from Lewis for 15 rounds ,let alone 20/25rds.

Today Jeffries fights with Corbett, and Fitz would have been stopped before the end, because Jeffries was so far behind against Corbett,and because Fitz reduced his face to steak tartare.

Sharkey goes the distance twice with Jeffries ,and Choynski at 167lbs goes 20rds to a draw ,a faded 2 years retired Corbett goes 23rds, yet Lennox gets kod by him?

You are now entering the TWILIGHT ZONE.

The link below gives accounts of Jeffries first and second fights with both Fitz and Corbett.
It states that Fitz hit Jeffries almost at will in their first fight ,but ran out of gas in the 11 th rd.

It states that Corbett virtually lapped Jeffries in their first fight and only a ko saved Jeffries title. " he utterly failed to reach Corbett with his gloves,although Corbett battered him around so freely that the big fellow looked foolish".

Read the paragraph about the second fight with FItz who was 39 years old ,it states," Fitz made Jeffries look foolish."

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1910-07-03/ed-1/seq-8/
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mcvey · Nov 11, 2011

janitor said: ↑

I have never been a fan of the logic that big heavyweights would have sucess against sombody because smaller heavyweights did. There have clearly been a lot of champion who struggled with smaller technicians, but did well against bigger fighters. Such fights as Jeffries had against fighters his own size suggests that he might have been one of them.

I also see the fights that you see as being damaging to Jeffries in a verry different light. The fights that he is criticised most for, he should be lauded for with a modicum of context.

Jeffries improved his boxing technique considerably after he came under the tutelage of Bob Fitzsimmons. By the time of the Munroe fight he was probably as good a technician as anybody outside of specialists such as Johnson.
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I have reports of the Munroe /Johnson fight that state Munroe had no boxing ability at all, and had never learned even the rudiments of the game, this is five fights AFTER he had been drubbed by Jeffries
A four round prelim fighter would look good against Munroe.
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cross_trainer · Nov 11, 2011

Seamus said: ↑

Boilermaker said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

When was Jeffries every tested by a puncher with the strength, power and output of Lewis? Do you seriously think Choynski or Sharkey punched as hard as Lewis? Do you deny that a skilled 235 lb fighter punches harder than a 170 or 180 lb fighter? If you do deny this, why do we even bother with weight divisions. There is no precedent for Jeffries surviving the kind of power Lewis possessed. Conversely, the monsters that Lewis had to endure dwarf the opponents who busted up Jeffries... Ruddock, Morrison, Tua, Tyson, Grant, Vitali, etc... These guys punched on a level that is geometrically greater than the super middles of the 1890's. Lewis survived those guys to KO all but Tua, whom he thumped badly.

If the ref and Jeffries' corner have zero empathy, Jeffries gets a career ending beating within 6 rounds. Utterly inhumane.
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An often repeated point, though: Fitz and Sharkey were hitting Jeffries with tiny gloves. If a modern heavyweight got pulverized by Gerald McClellan with MMA gloves for round after round, I'd conclude he had a pretty good chin. Jeffries also endured a shellacking with tiny gloves against Johnson when Jeffries was old and weight drained, and Johnson was 200 pounds.

I'd say he had a pretty good chin.*

* The converse also applies. Jeffries' power isn't as impressive when you consider the small gloves.
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SuzieQ49 · Nov 11, 2011

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mcvey · Nov 12, 2011

cross_trainer said: ↑

Seamus said: ↑

Boilermaker said: ↑

An often repeated point, though: Fitz and Sharkey were hitting Jeffries with tiny gloves. If a modern heavyweight got pulverized by Gerald McClellan with MMA gloves for round after round, I'd conclude he had a pretty good chin. Jeffries also endured a shellacking with tiny gloves against Johnson when Jeffries was old and weight drained, and Johnson was 200 pounds.

I'd say he had a pretty good chin.*

* The converse also applies. Jeffries' power isn't as impressive when you consider the small gloves.
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I'd say Jeffries had a prettty good chin too, but it was untested against super heavyweights like Lewis.
Jeffries retired in his prime with but a handful of fights,if he had continued ,and if he had fought all comers then, instead of drawing the colour line we might have seen a few losses against his name.
Under modern rules, Jeffries would certainly have been tkod against the 39 years old Fitz in their second fight. I dispute the idea that Jeffries was weight drained ,he had 18 months to lose 75lbs, he was just out for too long.

P.S. You are replying to a post I did not make ,it was Seamus's ,allthough I agree with it ,so I answered it.
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mcvey · Nov 12, 2011

janitor said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

These observations were directed at the board in general.

That is a prety good argument for Jeffries having problems with smal technical fighters, but not necisarily an argument for him faring badly against bigger fighters.

It might be that he would have found people bigger than himself easier to chop down.

You just don't know.

I did not mean to directly acuse Lewis of ducking Byrd, but I wish they had fought just to see how Lewis would have handeled Byrd.

Looking at the training footage, I don't think there have been many 220 pounders with that sort of speed and co ordination.

Was Ray Mercer any bigger than Jeffries?

I could bring a few more to the table.

I see a bit of a case of history repeating itself here. The acolades thrust upon Lewis at the moment, are strikingly similar to those offered up to James Jackson Jeffries in the aftermath of his retirment, even down to hte arguments.

I could just change the dates and swap the names.
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Jeffries retired at the height of his prime ,undefeated, he was a giant for his times.today he would be a small heavy ,smaller than Adamek.
He was the first champ to retire holding the corwn and that coupled with his size made hima somewhat mythological figure.If he had continued boxing and defended against ALL challengers, he would likely have some losses on his sheet.

Lewis faced everyone who was perceived as havinga raealistic chance of beating him, two did and were beaten in return.I see no similaritties between his reign and Jeffries.

N. B. You said Jeffries should have fought the bigger Sandy Ferguson, Ferguson was slightly taller than Jeffries ,but scaled under 200lbs for Jeffries reign.

It would have been difficult to sell a Ferguson fight because, having refused to fight Johnson ,taking on Ferguson who was beaten 4 times by Johnson during Jeffries reign ,would not have been a wise move.
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