Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Lewis was certainly not slow. He had very good handspeed. He easily outspeeds Liston and put better combinations together as well.

 

The Terrell fight was discussed before, I think. Terrell used his jab very little, fighting an unusual fight for himself. They are in different classes with Lewis in most departments, whether it's skills or natural abilities. Lewis won't be walking forward passively behind a high guard and only start fighting in close. Plus, Terrell had a damaged eye early in the fight, so he had to basically fight Ali one-eyed. In all the Terrell fight gives us no hints whatsoever about what Lewis-Ali fight would be like.
Norton exploited a very simple thing in all three fights, with that step forward with a jab and protect against Ali's jab whenever Ali desided to throw it. How a "master" like Ali couldn't find antidote for it, is beyond understanding. Lewis was faster than Norton, and had longer reach, he'd be hitting Ali the same way Norton did all night long, and unlike Norton, he'd follow it up with something else, and uppercut or a cross. Ali never used his back hand to protect his head while throwing a jab, he always kept it low. And while throwing a jab, he stayed upright for a moment, he couldn't step back and lean away from a punch at such moments, or use body movement to avoid getting hit with a cross. Lewis will use his timing to calculate where Ali will be while throwing his jab, and step forward with a cross (one clean right cross to the chin of completely open Ali at such moments, and he's not getting up).
The guys with punching power that Ali fought were mediocre and predictable boxers. Both Foreman and Shavers were poorly skilled, not very clever. Still Foreman's slow heavy punches were enough to get Ali out on his feet, on his own admission. Lewis was a lot more accurate and sharp puncher than either, he didn't throw punches with a hope of them landing, he looked for openings or he worked to create them, with footwork, feints or angles.
It's funny how you bring up "speed of hand and foot" and in the same section mention fights with Lyle, Bonavena, Frazier and Foreman. Ali defeated these fighters not with "speed of hand and foot" (which had considerably diminished by this point), but by toughness. But toughness is good when you get average punishment during long time, not when you get clocked by sharp accurate puncher where you are unprepared for the punch that hit you.
Ali's punching power was mediocre at best. He couldn't get many people to respect it, there's nothing he can hit Lewis with to make Lennox respect it, and he'll have a hard time trying to hit him in the first place at all.

 

I hear you McGrain, my response in defence of Norton was merely to redress the balance a little, as he had been completely dismissed as a comparitor to Lewis.

While I dont believe Norton to be a Great, he was competent, exceptionally well-trained and very competitive.


Lewis may be more prone to one punch KO's than Norton but this is an old tune that just doesn't need to be played in a Lewis v Ali thread - Ali is not going to knock out Lewis with one punch.[/quote]

 

Of freakin course there was no shoulder injury man. Liston after seeing he could not even touch a BLIND Ali (explain that if it's a fix), it was a mere excuse so he could get out of the fight and not have to sustain even more of a beating. Look at Liston's face after the fight dude, does that look like a guy who was supposed to take a dive? Who would let themselves get their ass whooped for 6 rounds, blind the guy he was supposed to lose to (and try to knock him out while he is blinded), and then just quit because that's what the 'script' said. Nobody in a fixed fight would put themselves through that. Besides that it makes absolutley no sense. Your wrong here.

I wasn't saying that he was. I was saying that Foreman, who hit much harder than Lewis, hit Ali with his best shots and Ali withstood them. Now if wrecking ball shots like Foreman's arent going to crack Ali's armor, then the 3 or 4 right hands Lewis would be able to throw are a round aren't either.
And I still disagree even IF Lewis is faster, it's not by much, certainly not enough to make a difference.

You're basically throwing out random comments without any references. Lewis never faced anyone like Ali. Never faced a fast or slick guy, outside of Holyfield who fought more of an inside battle vs Lewis.
So how are you so sure that he wouldn't be a threat. Anyone with hands as fast as Ali is a threat. Through fatigue or not, Ali was the only man to ever stop Formman, who's chin was just a little bit better than Lewis's:roll: . Also I believe he was the only man to stop Bonevena, somthing Frazier couldn't do in 25 rounds of boxing. Not bad for a slapper eh? or are these fights fixed to I wonder?:yep

On that note Lewis's chin isn't exactly made of the highest quality material my friend. McCall and Rahman weren't even known as punchers untill they dented ol' Lewis chin. Ali might not have been able to pack as quite a powerful punch as those 2 in one whallop, but it would be the better tecnique, speed, and volume that would do it.

I don't really see where you are going with this because the proofs all there. Ali dances circles around the Big Brit in a boring 15 round UD.

 

That's the point. Someone like Liston couldn't put to sleep a virtually blind person? As Stanislavskiy said "I don't believe it". Or, quoting you:

Foreman's punches were heavier, but they weren't harder, if you know what I mean. Foreman scored very few one-punch knockdowns or knockouts. He couldn't convert his raw power into power of impact properly, not enough handspeed/accuracy/timing.

Very few of his punches to the head actually land, and those that did, were softened/amortized.

There offense was completely different. Lewis wasn't trying to just hurt you, wear you down, he tried to score effectively, inflict as much damage as he could with as few power punches as possible, he was a boxer-puncher more than a slugger/power-puncher young Foreman was.

The difference is clear on film. I have almost complete Lewis career (only one fight missing; plus several his amateur fights) and over a dozen of Liston fights, it's clear as daylight Lewis was considerably faster with hands and on feet.

How many punches did Ali need to knock people down or out? How many clean knockouts did he score with 1 or 2-3 punches? How many times he was unable to rid of opponents at all or it took him a lot of rounds and a lot of punishment to stop his opponents, who were not known for having a solid chin?

Ali landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses to Foreman's chin, George just kept going forward. Only after Foreman punched himself out, Ali was able to put him down.

Frazier was a swarmer, also with heavy, but not very hard punch. How many 1 or 2-3 punch knockdowns or knockouts can you remember from Frazier? Not counting the examples, where he previously wore the opponent down with bunches of punches.

Sorry, but Ali had tens of times to showcase such ability, but failed miserably.

Lewis exploits Ali's flawed defense, like several other fighters did, who were much inferior to Lewis in both skills and power, and puts him to sleep.

 

Senya you forget Lewis lost to two bums. You can make fun of Ali getting knocked down by Cooper but what happened the next round? What happened the round after Lewis got knocked down by McCall and Rahman? Let's not forget Lewis is the only top 10 heavyweight to lose to a heavyweight not in the top 50 twice in his prime. If anyone gets knocked out it will be Lewis.
We never saw Ali on the ground for a 10 count but I have seen Lewis twice looking at the ceiling for a 10 count.

Lewis chin was pathetic. A 40 year old out of shape Larry Holmes was not hurt by Mercer or McCall but lewis was knocked out by McCall and hurt badly by Mercer Foreman seemed to hold up pretty good against Briggs but Lewis was badly hurt in the first round

If your gonna say Ali-Liston 1 was a fix I'm gonna say McCall-Lewis 2 was a obvious fix
as well.

 

We saw Ali hurt just as badly by a European mediocrity, as Lewis was hurt by McCall. We saw a mediocre journeyman Sonny Banks put Ali down. Both are far inferior to McCall and Rahman, as boxers or punchers.
We didn't see it, but we know about it where Ali was knocked senseless twice in the same round by old retired former middleweight Jimmy Ellis.

 

Manny Stewart ranks Ali ahead of Lewis.
We all know trainers are always biased towards their fighters. You will never hear Leonard Ellerbee say SRL was better then Floyd

 

Senya the point is Ali knocked out Copper in the next round and beat Banks.
Lewis was on ***** street against McCall. If the fight was allowed to continue he would of been finished within 10 seconds. if McCall did not take a dive he would of knocked out Lewis again. He had his hands down and Lewis couldn't even dent his chin.

 

Senya you do realize a fighter doesn't lose a fight by getting knocked down. It's what you do after the knockdown that matters. Ali stopped Cooper the following round and also knocked out Banks. The only one who got knocked out after Lewis was knocked down was Lewis himself. Senya I don't think your wrong I just don't think you understand the rules in boxing. You don't lose a fight when you get knocked down once.

 

Ali knocked out Cooper? When and where?

 

Cooper knocked down Ali in the fourth round and Ali stopped him in the 5th
I saw Rahman knockdown Lewis in the fifth round but my DVD was scratched so I couldn't watch the rest of the fight. Senya if you can kindly tell me what Lewis did in the sixth round it
would be much appreciated