Lennox Lewis vs Chris Byrd

I never got why people seemed to think Byrd troubles Lewis. If Ike could beat Byrd, surely Lewis would also. If Lewis never fought Tua and Morrison half this forum would say they would kayo him.

 

I like Byrd a lot. Lewis takes it.

 

Had this happened in 2002, Lewis was slowing down post the Rahman loss and age, while Byrd was at the tail end of his peak.

Byrd would be a very frustrating opponent, and I predict the upset. Had Lewis thought he could beat Byrd, he wouldn't have ducked him, and he did duck him.

 

Lewis didn't duck Razor Ruddock, Bruno, McCall, Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Holyfield, Tua, Rahman, Tyson and Vitali but yeah I'm sure he was terrified of a fat MW with no power.

 

Lewis stops Byrd about as easily as Wlad did in the Byrd rematch.

Byrd wasn't very good. He arguably lost every time he defended his belt before Wlad stopped him.

 

You got it wrong. Lewis didn't avoid punchers, he preferred them as opponents.

Lewis didn't like fast opponents, especially when he got older.

Byrd was certainly avoided, not because of power...are you nuts to think anyone is suggesting people were scared of being knocked out by Byrd? Byrd as noted by Holyfield, and other boxers was a guy you didn't fight unless you had to, because he sits in the pocket and makes you miss, he then clowns you and makes you look bad. Lewis didn't have to fight Byrd. He wasn't short on money, had other titles, and Tyson was willing, why jeopardize that by fighting a fast south paw?

I didn't even invent this narrative, Byrd was noted in his time by writers and other boxers as an avoided opponent, you know what helped cement this reputation... Lewis giving up the IBF belt, and Holyfield calling Lewis out on it in the hype for the Byrd fight for the vacant title.

 

You are more than just implying here that there could be no other reason for why Lewis didn't fight Byrd than he didn't think he could beat him.

This is patently not the case.

Lewis was already contemplating retirement in 2002. A Tyson rematch - however needless that match might have been, from a sporting perspective - was the only thing keeping Lewis interested, since it would have been a very lucrative fight to retire on.

Byrd was the antithesis of a big-money draw. Not even in a build up to a Tyson rematch was Byrd viable.

 

Lewis signing up for Kirk Johnson, a fat Canadian slugger he knew he could blow out and less a draw than Byrd, kind of blows this completely up. This was called out by the American sports media, again I didn't invent the Lewis ducked Byrd narrative.

Yes I'm implying if Byrd was a fat slug Lewis was confident he could blow out, the fight would have been signed. It was IBF recognized with the highest rated American Heavyweight... even if Byrd wasn't a superstar, it would have had a good purse and you could look up the offer, it would have been on the level of some of Lewis' other defenses with American media coverage and HBO support. The only American near popular as Tyson was Holyfield who Byrd just had an unexpectedly easy win against.

I know all about Lewis' lucrative options....a rematch with Tyson or a fight with Roy Jones are only super fight options worth more, neither had any chance of happening, and a poor selling bout against a Canadian last seen on HBO getting rubber legged by John Ruiz.

Byrd was a mandatory challenger who actually earned it with a good win over Tua in a televised fight, was not just IBF ranked #1 but rated #2 by RING, and went on to get one of the more dominant official wins over Holyfield since Bowe 3 for the vacated title in a HBO fight. The landscape was bleak. The Klitschkos were still mostly unknown in the States, Wlad would get knocked out by Sanders soon enough, Tyson didn't want to do it again, Jones didn't want it...Byrd fresh off the Evander win and with IBF recognition as Champ was actually the best opponent at the time.

If Lewis wanted to retire....he should have, instead of giving Byrd the run around for almost two years. I didn't care for Foreman's prolonged retirement tour with the lineal title either. I don't expect Champions to always fight the best, but Byrd was a clear loose end. If you want to excuse this crap or spin it, your call. I get it, Lewis was old, and Byrd was high risk/modest reward. But it's still a duck.

 

I agree. He struggled mightily with Golota, who basically had one good arm by that point.
Even Alex Leapai managed to clock Byrd quite often. Byrd looked really poor in that fight.
Wlad beat him without raising a sweat.

Even an unmotivated Lewis surely beats Byrd.

 

The Golota and Wlad 2 fights were well after Byrd/Lewis was in the works. Byrd was starting to slow down by 04, and look unmotivated. A prime Wlad and Golota are also quicker than a past prime Lewis.

Golota didn't appear one armed, he would give maybe his career best against Ruiz right after this. Golota wouldn't injure his shoulder until Ray Austin...well after the Byrd performance. What injury are you referencing to the one handed claim?

Alex Leapai never even fought Byrd. This is the Byrd who just beat up and clowned a very lean Tua, and embarrassed Evander. What are you taking about? Leapai came up much later, when he upset Boystov no less than 10 years after Lewis and Byrd was ordered.

I'm not sure unmotivated Lewis beats Byrd. I think Lewis at his best is still gonna be in for a hard fight.

 

This^ doesn’t blow anything up - not remotely. Johnson wasn’t even an option in 2002 and was only brought into the picture when initial negotiations with Vitali Klitschko (Lewis’ WBC Mandatory) fell through, in early 2003.

In addition to that, Lewis/Johnson was planned as one part of a double-header; the other being Tyson/Maskaev. At this point, drawing a crowd wasn’t going to be an issue.

No one has suggested you did invent the narrative. Lewis clearly avoided fighting Byrd. It’s beyond dispute. But not all fights get to happen and the reasons for why certain fights don’t occur vary.

What I challenged, in my initial response to you, was your assertion that the only reason Lewis did not fight Byrd was because he didn’t think he could win - which is nonsense.

Yes, and I am suggesting that you are wrong.

Lewis was originally seeking to fight his WBC Mandatory, Vitali Klitschko, who doesn’t fit the description you outline above. Although, I am sure Lewis had confidence enough to reckon on blowing out any opponent he went into the ring with, regardless of how misplaced that self-assured attitude might have been, at times.

Byrd was a King fighter and the offer from King was $1Million for Lewis to give-up the IBF title, else it was going to go to purse bids.

No one wanted that fight and HBO would have needed to deliver more than mere support. The bout simply had no legs in it.

Holyfield didn't want to fight Byrd either, but was persuaded by the allure of becoming a five-time world champ... ...

Jones didn't want to fight Byrd, either - and never did - I guess he avoided Byrd too.

Again - Johnson was considered a tune-up, as was Maskaev for Tyson in the original June 21st 2003 line-up. The aim was to get Tyson in the ring again, after Etienne, to further rebuild his image, in the hope a Lewis/Tyson rematch could become saleable, later that same year.

Having Lewis and Tyson on the same bill was to help the idea of a rematch along, in the eyes of the public. But Tyson pulled out; Johnson pulled out; Klitschko, who had been originally scheduled to fight on the undercard, was suddenly upgraded to championship challenger.

Byrd was a distant memory by then and the Lewis Camp’s prediction that it would have been a boring fight, had they met, was only underpinned by the stinkfests Byrd went on to participate in.

Sure, Byrd earned his IBF ranking by beating Tua, who had been utterly outclassed by Lewis, less than a year, earlier.

No matter - Byrd still got his IBF title shot anyway, didn't he?

Good grief!

Holyfield was 40 years old when he fought Byrd. In the previous 5 years, he’d gone 3-2-2 and one of the Draws is universally recognized as a robbery.

I think you overstate Byrd’s win over Holyfield - quite considerably.

And, what has HBO got to do with it?

I can understand why you think this, when you rate Byrd’s victory against Holyfield so highly. However, Byrd’s subsequent bouts did not demonstrate the level you seem to want to attribute to him.

Byrd really only has one, clear and good win of note on his resume and that is his win over Tua. Vitali K is a nice name to have in your ‘W’ column, but it was hardly a convincing victory and raised more questions about VK than it increased Byrd's stocks.

I don’t feel the need to excuse anything. Lewis was entitled to fight who he saw fit, by this time - make it worth his while and retire when he wanted to. He had earned that right.

The reality of Byrd’s challenge is that he had a small window of opportunity, during which he might have been able to get a fight agreed with Lewis. But Don King didn’t want it and actively sought to ensure the fight didn’t happen. Lewis wasn’t interested anyway and for good reason (a reason, which was borne out in numerous Byrd fights, thereafter).

As it happens, Lewis completed his ledger with another career-defining fight, cementing his status as The Heavyweight Champion. So, there’s nothing to complain about, unless you belong to the fanbase of Byrd and/or Klitschko (the latter of whom still grieve over the rematch that never was).

 

Lewis would land to the body cut off the ring laugh off Byrd's punches and take himout in the middle rounds
Lennox should lobby for a small ring to make things as easy as possible

 

For the record, I just want to state I do not rank Byrd's Holyfield win highly. I was speaking in terms of what it did for Byrd's stock, it got him mainstream exposure briefly and was considered an impressive performance, not because Evander was prime but because it was a flashier and easier win than expected.

Also...I'm in no way arguing this as a great win, I want to be clear. But I feel you are underrating Evander as a competitor, he was still top 5 at the time. Of that 2-2-2. Wins over Rahman and Ruiz. Draws to Lewis and Ruiz (Ruiz 3 is recognized as a robbery for Evander). The losses are competitive decisions to Lewis and Ruiz...the Lewis being close. So with Lewis being the Man at this time, Ruiz being a top titlist backed by King, and Rahman going 1-1 against Lewis since you like records at face value now....

That said, this Evander isn't prime but he's good, he'd popular, and Byrd wasn't expected to be literally dancing him around the ring.

But ultimately this argument boils down to this. I feel Lewis didn't fight Byrd because he didn't like the match up, and didn't want to risk Tyson for a fast defensive southpaw. People jump to Lewis defense, by claiming he wasn't scared of losing to Byrd.. he just had reasons ...okay. We aren't gonna surprise each other with anything.

 

The point is, no one needs to jump to Lewis' defense and you are kind of proving this, by focusing your case on Byrd/Holyfield - a bout which would not have taken place, had Don King and Lewis not arranged for Lewis to offer up his IBF belt.

I trust you can see the irony in that - and, by the way, the purses of Holyfield and Byrd, even when combined, fell considerably short of the sum Lewis had earned for fighting Tucker back in 1992 - just as an example.


Funny that you refer to me as taking records at face-value. Indeed, the numbers alone never tell the whole story, but 7 fights in 5 years is an indicator of low activity over a prolonged period and being 40 years old speaks for itself. Moreover, digging into the context of the those numbers of Holyfield's doesn't help your case for boosting his relevance in 2002, at all.

Being 'competitive' was in Holyfield's nature. He had a lot of self-belief, but this didn't stop his physical abilities eroding. The Holyfield/Ruiz trilogy could be argued as one of the worst in Heavyweight history. People were calling for Holyfield's retirement throughout and continued to do so, as he went into the Rahman bout (and beyond); a fight he won by way of a headbutt, leading to a TD.

And, let's not pretend Rahman was anything special to begin with. He'd had his moment in the sun against Lewis and was then summarily poleaxed in the return, before meeting Holyfield. Rahman would lose his next two fights, after Holyfield, making it 4 L's on the bounce. Holyfield would lose his next two, after Byrd, making it three losses on the bounce; the most emphatic of which was to James Toney.

You yourself stated; "The landscape was bleak". So, with what was by then relative mediocrity propping up mediocrity to make Byrd look viable, I can't rate Byrd all that highly. As previously alluded to - even if you put aside the fact Byrd was generally regarded as unwatchable and a financial risk - he simply didn't live up to this mythical version, some people like to imagine would have supposedly shown up to face Lewis. Byrd had already been done over pretty handily by big Heavyweights. The default victory over VK, notwithstanding, Byrd's record was not indicative of a guy, who could convincingly beat the big men of the division.

The idea that the only reason Lewis didn't meet Byrd was because he didn't think he could beat him, when all things are considered, is an absurd one.

 

Rahman would not lose his next two fights. He drew with Tua in a robbery he should have won. But yeah...he would still be a major player in the WBC title picture well after that. I think his best overall performance was against Meehan actually.

King put Holyfield vs Byrd together because HBO had an opening slot for Lewis vs Byrd that Lewis didn't want, so there was a rush to get a fight together on a short notice.

Holyfield was outboxing Rahman before the butt. Fair win and a good win.

Holyfield injured his shoulder against Byrd. He never was right after the surgery and time off I feel.

Holyfield fought twice in 99, once in 00, twice in 01, twice in 02. That is typical modern prize fighter activity actually. I also don't understand why are you trying to argue down the Holyfield vs Byrd win...it's not like my last post mentioned multiple times I don't rate that highly. But in proper context, it was a good win and great performance for Byrd.

Mythical Byrd? LoL. Okay. I don't think it takes a myth to trouble or even beat a past prime Lewis. Byrd has a good record against super heavies, the win over Vitali is as genuine as Lewis'. He also beat McCline. Where are Lewis wins against fast defensive southpaws?

I like the "only reason" stipulation you keep going with. Lewis gave a number of BS reasons, my point is he if he could have beat Byrd as he easily as he claimed he wouldn't have got cold feet and let Holyfield take his place.

Ultimately, I don't understand the argument that it's not a duck if the Champion is favored to win. This is boxing, nothing is certain. Insisting a Champion doesn't have fight a deserving challenger because he is favored to win is absurd. And again, it's not like it was a crowded scene and Byrd just got missed. No Lewis deliberately avoided him when he had plenty of valid reasons to fight him, and even took time off, while he pursued other opponents.