Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

OLD FOGEY · Apr 5, 2008

JohnThomas1 said:

So how many men are around as big as Valuev that give a damn about boxing?

I do agree about diminishing returns, but i'd set the mark a long way from where you would i think and would also make allowances for the odd exception to the rule.
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"So how many men are around as big as Valuev that give a damn about boxing?"

How many men are around as big as Valuev, period?

JohnThomas1 · Apr 5, 2008

McGrain said:

John, i'm not just blowing smoke up your arse hole when I say; a poster as good as you are shouldn't be saying "Dempsey was too small, Dempsey was too small, Dempsey was too small". The first line in this post that i've quoted is the one that interests me and you are more than capable of making an excellent argument. Not being disengenuos or anything.

But this size thing is bull****. As an excluding factor. You'll see in my posts that I see Dempsey as, basically too small to be made favourite over Lewis. But that is because of multiple factors. It might not be true of Bowe for example (although it might).
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How do you know i am not 100% perfectly right? Modern history is with me as far as i am concerned and i have seen enough in this thread to reassure myself.

As far as "i just don't think he's half the fighter many make him out to be."

Have you seen some of the comments on him? Better defensively than Roberto Duran :yikes

One single mistake and it's lights out, etc, etc. Instead of a robe he may as well have come into the ring wearing a cape.

I mean come on. I've seen his defence described as not as good as Marciano's, and it sure as hell isn't comparable to Duran's. Many people religiously pick him over any and every heavyweight that ever laced a glove, which i quite frankly find ridiculous. I'll stand by what i said.

JohnThomas1 · Apr 5, 2008

janitor said:

One thing that Dempsey was good at was mauling people in the clinches. He knew every dirty trick in close and made people pay a high price for holding on. Sort of like trying to clinch a hedgehog.
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And here's a perfect example McGrain. I mean christ
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NickHudson · Apr 5, 2008

Fair enough, but I am guessing that ice hockey takes away some of the mobility issues associated with large size, because you are moving around on such a frictionless surface??

As I said in my post there are indeed some (very rare) exceptions.

The best I know is Jona Lomu, the NZ rubgy union player who at 6 5, 275lbs creams any athlete I have ever heard of. As well as the Maori sidestep (ie run over the top of your opponent) he could also fend and step and had tremendous acceleration and top-end speed.

If you have not seem him it is worth checking out some Youtube highlights!

Vanboxingfan said:

I don't recall out and out saying he was wrong, but references would be nice, which you seemed to have provided it, which is much appreciated.

I personally don't think this size issue transends all sports at all. For example, I'm a hockey fan and beyond a doubt the defenseman have gotten bigger. The ones who win the Norris trophey now tend to be significantly bigger than they were 20 years ago. Most are well above 6" and 200lbs with the elite being Pronger who is about 6'5" and about 240, so I don't buy this upper limit theory. Dimishing returns, sure, but I think when all things are factored in size can be an advantage. As several posters have mentioned I don't see any sub 200lb belt holders at the moment and I'm not expecting any to materialize. Smaller generally means there's a speed advantage, which in boxing matters a lot, but if that's all that mattered, we'd have Cruiserweights taking over the heavyweight belts. I suppose what's being inferred but not said directly is that 200-215 fighters possess a desireable combination of speed and power such that they can over come the slower but more powerful guys in the 240+ range.

And they require, skill, mobility, strength and a number of other skills. In Football, running backs and linemen tend to be bigger and more skilled as well. But there are exceptions, the best Hockey player in the world was by most accounts Gretzky and he was only about 180lb and under 6'ft.
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JohnThomas1 · Apr 5, 2008

OLD FOGEY said:

"So how many men are around as big as Valuev that give a damn about boxing?"

How many men are around as big as Valuev, period?
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Which is EXACTLY the point i make.

:good

JohnThomas1 · Apr 5, 2008

NickHudson said:

Fair enough, but I am guessing that ice hockey takes away some of the mobility issues associated with large size, because you are moving around on such a frictionless surface??

As I said in my post there are indeed some (very rare) exceptions.

The best I know is Jona Lomu, the NZ rubgy union player who at 6 5, 275lbs creams any athlete I have ever heard of. As well as the Maori sidestep (ie run over the top of your opponent) he could also fend and step and had tremendous acceleration and top-end speed.

If you have not seem him it is worth checking out some Youtube highlights!
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Scary fukker that one, what an athlete comparative to size. His 100m for a man that size was astonishing.

OLD FOGEY · Apr 5, 2008

Vanboxingfan said:

OLD FOGEY said:

I think it does on average, just not all the time. Certainly in the lower divisions if the talent is equal, then it's almost a given that size matters, even 5-10lbs.

In the heavyweight division I too think it matters, just not to the same degree. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two best fighters over the last 10 years are over 6'5" and weigh in excess of 245lbs. Both Wlad and Lewis are fighters who have learned to use their size to their best advantage, and I certainly believe that it's made huge differences in the outcome of various fights. It pretty much goes without saying that if either were the size of Byrd, neither of them would be where they are today. Can superior skill overcome these size advantages, to some degree yes, if it allow a fighter to focus on the short comings of these huge guys. Wlad doesn't seem to like to get hit and is prone to panick, so a fighter who can really crack, such as Sanders, had the tools to over come his size, but most fighters can't. Could an older fighter such as Dempsey get inside these guys and win? Perhaps, but it's not the most likely scenario. I'd certainly give Dempsey a better chance of beating Wlad than Lewis, but I'd favour both over him. And I'm a huge, huge Dempsey fan, so I don't get any great joy in coming to this conclusion.
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It might shock you, but I largely agree with this, although I don't buy into Sanders punching harder than Dempsey, if that is implied.

I would say that in a sport such as baseball, for example, I would expect that normally a 220 pounder has more power to hit tape measure home runs on the average than a 185 or 190 pounder. There are more 220 pounders with big power, but there have also been smaller men, such as Jimmy Foxx in the 1930's and Mickey Mantle in the 1950's who simply hit the ball farther than the big guys did. It was Foxx and Mantle, for example, who cleared the roof at Comiskey Park while a lot of bigger men failed.
I think golf would follow the same pattern. Tiger Woods hits very long, but he weighs only about 185. Sam Snead was not that big, and he was another very long hitter.

My position on this issue is that of a skeptic. It does seem logical that big men hit harder, etc, but the historical evidence is not convincing.
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NickHudson · Apr 5, 2008

Vanboxingfan said:

Many football positions, such as linebackers etc. generally scale 275+ or more.
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Please can you provide some names of the 275+ guyes who can run and jump as well as the 200-215 lb guys?

Vanboxingfan said:

Certainly running backs are upwards of 230 or bigger and I don't think anyone would honestly question their athleticsm. In basketball, you can point to Jordan, and I'll point to Shaquille.
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Shaquille actually supports Janitors argument. He is athletic FOR HIS SIZE, but in real absolute terms, compared to someone like Jordan, he is relatively slow and cant jump well... Compare the height and hang times of them both.

Vanboxingfan said:

I suppose what's being inferred but not said directly is that 200-215 fighters possess a desireable combination of speed and power such that they can over come the slower but more powerful guys in the 240+ range.
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YES!

But in all sports there are exceptions, the best Hockey player in the world was by most accounts Gretzky and he was only about 180lb and under 6'ft.[/quote]

YES!

Maxmomer · Apr 5, 2008

I've seen his defence described as not as good as Marciano's
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By the same people that said Marciano was a far better infighter? Seriously? Also, Dempsey was good at mauling people in the clinches.

JohnThomas1 · Apr 5, 2008

Maxmomer said:

By the same people that said Marciano was a far better infighter? Seriously? Also, Dempsey was good at mauling people in the clinches.
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Whether one agree's with the writer or not it certainly makes claims of his defence being better than Duran's laughable.

RoccoMarciano · Apr 5, 2008

JohnThomas1 said:

Whether one agree's with the writer or not it certainly makes claims of his defence being better than Duran's laughable.
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I think his whole legend is laughable. Pick the most overrated tomato can in boxing history and we have only one name.

Musashi · Apr 6, 2008

Lewis TKO 3

dmt · Apr 6, 2008

RoccoMarciano said:

I think his whole legend is laughable. Pick the most overrated tomato can in boxing history and we have only one name.
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:roll:

Sonny's jab · Apr 6, 2008

It was Ray Arcel who used Dempsey as the standard to which he would compare Duran to.

Arcel actually saw Dempsey in the flesh and worked with him. He also worked with Duran.

enquirer · Apr 6, 2008

One of the great threads of our times.
Janitor and senya get my votes as most 'unusual' posters,only slightly behind the whitaker apologists.
I dont know why we have divisions janitor according to your logic.
Finally,p4p an ant may be miles stronger than an elephant,but ive yet to see even a novice chinny elephant get kicked to **** by even the 'ray robinson/muhamed ali' of ants.
Elephant KO 1 ant......
Size matters,ask the wife...:hi:

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