Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

Tommy did a great job in some fights. Even so, I'm not a huge fan of his.

 

Fair dinkum mate. :good

 

I don't know which part you are agreeing with there, Dinner

Tommy just did what he did as far as I'm concerned. Hard to argue with his greatness in some areas.

 

Tyson, Lewis, etc didn't lack it.


Have you thought of an explanation yet why nearly all hardest punchers in history for some magical reason scaled over 200 pounds?

 

I think this is third time you've said hardest punchers were over 200 pounds. That is your opinion. Marciano, Dempsey, Louis (right around 200) were among top punchers of all time. The guy who broke Sonny Liston's jaw in one fight, ( a win over Liston) and floored him in their third bout, weighed 180's, was 179 in third fight. He was alway just over lightheavy, yet broke Sonny Liston's jaw in one fight, knocked him down at weight of 179 in another. Curtis Shepard was rated one of hardest hitters in Hevyweight division by those who fought him, he was under 200 pounds.

 

Would you say that this was true before 1960 even though there were a great many big men way over 200 lbs fighting. I don't think so. My guess is that Sullivan, Fitz, Langford, Dempsey, Baer, Louis, and Marciano would probably rate at the top. Jeffries might be on the list. Louis is at 200 or so. I would argue that the under 200 lb men on the whole have the edge.

Leads me to wonder if the men over 200 lbs aren't just built up with supplements. I think it certainly possible that Tyson and Holyfield would have fought at less than 200 lbs if they fought in the 1920's, say, and the Klitschko's in the 210 to 225 range. At that weight, sheer size would not necessarily have overpowered cruiser size opposition.

 

Okay, so you've mentioned exceptions to the rule.


And it's not my opinion. Have a consensus compile a list of the 20 hardest punchers and count the amount of fighters over 200 pounds. Go to a gym and feel if a natural 210+lbs punches harder than a 180 pounder.

 

I will make one point here.

There is a verry obvious difference between the power of the hardest hitting 175 pounders and the hardest hitting 200 pounders barring a few freaks.

There is not an obvious diference between the hardest hitting 200 pounders and the hardest hitting 250 pounders.

 

Hard to speculate if they used steroids or not, (i take it by supplements you mean steroids), but it is clear that man naturally grew larger from the 60's due to better nutrition (maybe you meant this by supplements?).

Either way, what is the relevance?


Correct me if i'm interpreting this wrong, but it sounds to me like you say "The post-60's punchers only make the list because they grew so large". But that's mainly my point.


Pre-60's, people grew a lot less big and as a consequence, there was very little talent over the 200 pound region in comparison to the 180-200lbs region. And here's the thing: to be a succesful boxer, you need a mix of these ingredients:

technique/skill
stamina
heart
durability
power
dedication
handspeed
footspeed

In other words, power is merely one out of many categories that are being "selected" on. So, even if a 200+lbs heavyweight had a good combination of these, he need not score high in the power department, relative to his weight that is.

However, the talent pool over 200 pounds is significantly increased, then all succesful 200+lb fighters will emerge in the rankings that have all kinds of mixes of these attributes and sooner or later, they will score high in the power department. And that combined with their size advantage, they will outscore the punchers below 200 pounds.

Realistically, how many punchers below 200 pounds have we seen, since, say, Liston got champ? Patterson was a good but not great puncher, dito for Quarry, who else? Maybe i'm missing a few, but you get my point: almost all punchers from that point scaled over 200 pounds.


Then again, you could make a counter argument in exactly the same way, that because the cruiserweights started having trouble competing with the bigger guys from the 60's, and for that reason, we didn't see many succes cruiserweights who exceeded in the power department, just like we didn't see many big heavyweights who exceeded in the power department pre-60's. Tricky. :think

 

If there are exceptions to the rule, Dempsey is one of biggest exceptions of all time.

Before they started Cruiserweight division guys at 185-200 fought heavyweights and did well. If you look at most top cruisers, they step up to heavyweight eventualy. Only problem is most go crazy with bodybuilding/weight work. I'd like to see more guys try going in closer to natural size, which was often succsessful for past boxers.

 

What full fights of Hearns have you seen Rocco, out of interest?

 

He done pretty well against Hagler... that was a full fight

 

Ah ok, one then.

 

That is the best memory I have of him... not the only whole fight of his I ever watched.

 

Others?