Lennox Lewis vs Rocky Marciano

As I said watch the people len fought.. but doing that would also mean you need to watch other sports from that long ago and compare how they played vs 70s-now

 

You commented, and i quote - "he retired literally 1/3 of his opponents?"

So again, who were all these guys he retired?

He had 49 fights so 1/3 equals a touch over 16 guys pummelled into so called retirement.

Let's hear them. After that we can look at the quality of said retiree's and exact reasons.

 

Liston/Ali represent a point where 200 pound plus champions took over. Both were 210+ at their greatest. Prior to that it was a mixed bag but after that no sub 200 pound guys had any lasting success whatsoever. Leon Spinks (197 then 201 in the rematch)beat an ancient untrained Ali and that was all, she wrote. Michael Spinks at 199 3/4 (first ever fight at heavyweight and rose in weight every heavyweight fight thereafter) beat a tired aged Holmes and then battled him close at 205 in the rematch.

That's it.

Regarding Liston and Ali's 60's comp, well it's not only the fact that Liston beat Patterson, but the way he beat him. He treated him like a third rate citizen. It was child against man. A complete and utter mismatch. On top of this Ali, past his absolute peak, went on to beat bigger ATG's like Foreman and 200+ pound contender after contender so we know a ramp up in size was more than adequately handled.

How many heavyweight contenders would you say Archie Moore beat in the 60's?

We've had some good meanderings in here over the years about functional size, cut off theories and the point of diminishing returns which is where the real importance is. We've just seen Usyk reasonably impressively best Joshua x 2 to ram that home.

Do you really think guys the size of Ali, Liston and Holmes couldn't compete with Wlad and Fury?

 

Actually here's a brilliant 141 page "Blockbuster"! you started (or is it "instigated! LOL) in 2009. It has almost everything and certainly matches up with my functional size comments.

Houdini in customary form as well and RockyJim with his very own deep and balanced insights - The "Brockton Blockbuster" vs.the "Human Statue".... Wlad's chin vs.the "Suzie Q?"...if Ross and Corrie and Brewster can land......Tough as hell...as author Everett Skeehan said of Marciano,..."The toughest...most determined and relentless fighter that ever lived".......Marciano can't be judged simply by what you can see...he had a ton of intangibles...

It stopped pretty quickly then absolutely caught fire again a few years later and again and again even after that.

Your own posts in the first 2 pages -

"I'm afraid I'm going to annoy SuzieQ with this one, but I suspect Wlad beats Marciano rather thoroughly. There's a point where extra size really does start to tell, even against the Rock. The same goes for Lewis.

Thoughts? Feel free to prove me wrong."

.......

I see Marciano's relatively slow footspeed and tiny reach making it difficult for him to even get beyond the jab. He's awkward and harder to hit than he looks, but he just isn't mobile enough to consistently get close enough to land punches on Klitschko. Over 12 rounds with modern gloves, his superior stamina and bodypunching wouldn't have as much effect. Finally, there's the mechanical difficulty of even landing a punch with a tiny reach against a 6'6" man. It can be done, but he'd have to throw ridiculously high overhand rights and lefts. I see either a straight right or left hook putting him down repeatedly and the ref stepping in to stop it at some point when it's clear that Rocky's getting nullified.

Also, he's definitely a "tryer", but there's a difference between determination and stupidity when you're getting nailed with punches that hard. Surely he'd at least become more careful after being hit enough. He's not a fool, after all.

On the bright side, it would be somewhat difficult to tie Rocky up on the inside. But imagine the exhausting effect of Klitschko leaning on Marciano while the latter is crouched and bent over.

.......

For the record, Brewster would get destroyed by Marciano head-to-head

.......

All of those things are important, but many won't come into play vs. Wlad. It's hard to have a massive workrate and volume punching against a guy you can't consistently get inside against. I also wonder if Rocky would carry his power up to superheavyweight.

.......

Marciano has the right style to beat Wlad, but I don't think he has the size to do it.

.......

If it makes you feel any better, Louis destroys both brothers.

.......

Fantastic thread that one and i will bump it so we can enjoy it in stages (take a month to get thru!!!)

I agree with a heckuva lot of what you said too. Your last statement about Louis destroying both brothers certainly isn't completely outrageous tho it might be tougher than portrayed in places, or maybe not! It marries up with my belief that once you get over 200 pounds you are some sort of chance with anyone. The 180's, as you unequivocally portray isn't overly where you want to be against the behemoths tho.

Will bump now.

 

I don't have much time right now as I'm working. Luckily JT already basically went through everything.

From Liston, on their were no Marciano sized guys running the division.

Also, Patterson wasn't a "Marciano sized-heavyweight" he had a small but noticable physical advantage. He mostly fought in the 190s at heavyweight while Marciano only did so four times.

One more thing, you think Liston and Ali are "basically cruiserweights" (which isn't true) at all and would get absolutely "mingled" by Lewis and Wlad due to their size disadvantage ..... yet pick Joe Louis to beat both brothers.

I don't even know what to make of this other than an agenda on your end, which given some of your past posts (regarding Liston at least) isn't without merit.

 

Marciano was 5'10", Patterson was 6'0, and fought the majority of his career post-reign in the 190s which Rocky fought only three times in his career. More to the point, he was 189 and 192 for Liston which Marciano was never higher then.
As I said, it's a small size advantage, but it's a size advantage, nonetheless.

Anyways, if Patterson was even remotely competetive with Liston you'd have a point. But he was squashed..... like a bug.... twice.

I don't know why you continue to say this. It's simply not true. Cruiserweight limit today is 200 and going back down to 190 very soon. Ali and Liston were comfortably above both weights, so I have no idea why you continue saying both were cruisers.

If Liston enjoyed "modern nutrition" he'd very likely be taller given he never seemed to reach his full growth potential. He was poor as a child and teenager, and ate infrequently and inconsistently which is known to stunt grown. It explains why he has the dimensions of a much taller man (his reach, fists, calves, biceps, etc)

I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. You seem to be saying you think Ali was a cruiser ...... because you don't think Usyk is smaller than him which makes no sense whatsoever. I If Ali was held down by his presumed extra weight, and had mobility and speed issues then your argument that Ali was a natural cruiserweight would have some merrit..... but he was the fastest and most mobile heavyweight in history imo

Also Usyk in his last fight with Joshua was bigger than Wilder was in 26 out of 45 of his fights, so under your logic wouldn't Wilder be a cruiserweight?

 

Ironically no Heavyweight of Frazier's size ever had any lengthy success again, ever, let alone any period of dominance at all.

That's not to say a peak Frazier couldn't have dominated in the 80's but in almost 50 years since he's not been replicated.

 

Yes your opinion has certainly done if not a 360, then a 280 given you picked Louis to completely bury both Klits. To be fair both grew in stature from that point but still.

Moving on....

There's no weight class above the 210-220 Ali and Liston were. Those in power haven't felt the need for it whilst they have felt the need firstly to knock up a 190 pound division, and then as time moved on increase it to 200 pounds. This is still short of what Ali and Liston actually fought at. On top of this they trained down to fight there. Current drying out trends are irrelevant as we saw them fight at this weight and we saw what they could and couldn't do.

Primo Carnera was lineal and weighed 60 pounds more while dwarfing him yet was massacred. Via your line he was multiple weight classes above the likes of Joe and we know he was good enough to win the lineal title.

Disagree via the functional weight and size route. I do think you can argue Marciano was better suited to the likes of Liston and Ali than Lewis and Wlad tho. He's in that weight range they dropped out of the heavyweight division for logical reasons.

Deontay Wilder weighed what Ali and Liston did against Ortiz and Fury. He almost decapitated Fury.........so it's pretty hard to buy guys around 210 - 220 can't compete against.......Fury.

Ali proved himself well after the 60's and beat two ATG's bigger and more robust than any 60's guys excluding Liston.

Are you out and out picking Marciano over Ali and Liston? This actual thread is Marciano vs Lewis which you used to believe was a blowout.

Not many top posters say pre Liston heavyweights couldn't hack it especially given you had Joe Louis there. What a lot of guys are saying is that Marciano wouldn't cope with huge guys like Lewis and Fury and many also don't believe him to be good enough to beat the likes of Ali and Liston. Both views have very solid bases as does their belief the likes of Ali, Liston and Holmes could most certainly go well against these huge guys. You said yourself Ali and Liston could compete now yet in the same breath disagree that they would remain competitive forever. Forever is a long time and impossible to substantiate.

Again on Marciano it's not just his size as to why people routinely pick Ali and Liston over him it's a whole host of things.

 

And louis never would land on a klit so that pick makes no sense and sonny would destroy rock another lhw he destroyed was floyd

Sonny wasnt close to skill or as heavy as lennox but Sonny destroyed floyd easy and always would,floyd was more skilled then the whole rock era,so how is it lennox being way more skilled then Sonny and heavier loses to rock?,doesnt make sense

If rock would beat len then that means rock was more skilled then floyd which he wasn't

 

Man we should be paying for this sort of content.

 

It's all from free video

 

Well he's not "taller on it's own" he has about ten or so pounds on Rocky as well as a two inch height advantage. Is it significant? No. But it's an advantage nonetheless.

You seem to be arguing Marciano sized heavyweights still had success and weren't overshadowed in class and skill at that point in time and bring up Patterson as a "Marciano sized" heavyweight to support your claim.....

You did watch the Patterson-Liston fights right?

Of course they didn't cut weight at heavyweight... they didn't need to

. But where is your evidence their natural weights were under 200 pounds? With how confidently you've been repeating this claim, surely you have aa source?

Are you suggesting they would've trimmed down and went down if it was around? They did just fine in their own eras.

This makes nosense. We KNOW Ali's "in-ring" weight was higher than even today's modern cruiserweight limits.

Well yeah no ****. But he was just fine in the 210s-220s. It clearly did not hinder his performance in the slightest

 

Sadly, it's not even the worst post in this thread.

For once, his mom is proud.