Lennox Lewis vs Rocky Marciano

That's true for modern cruiserweights as well, that's the point. Ali wasn't bigger than modern CWs.

 

Patterson wasn't bigger than Marciano either. I really fail to understand what's the point of your attacks swag...

 

Holyfield would have something to say about that. His best run was at that weight and his trainers all thought he was better in thag range

 

Reasonable call tho he was a bit above Joe's weight averaged out.

It's worthwhile to say the only time he could beat Bowe was when he added a dozen pounds and came in at 217. It's also hard to say he dominated as his reign at the lighter weight lasted all of 3 fights with two against guys over 42yo and one against a lowly rated guy. The first bonafide danger he met touched him up.

I would agree he looked superb at 208 against Douglas. We probably both agree Holyfield would be live with many of the big boys. Bowe was very tough for Holyfield not just because of his size but various things he brought to the table with it.

 

Patterson was slightly bigger than Marciano. It's an undeniable fact. He frequently fought in the 190s, including against Liston while Marciano did so three times.

He was also two inches taller than Marciano.

Like I said, it's not a signicificant physical advantage but it's one nonetheless.

 

Well no it's not. If their in-ring work was higher than the cruiserweight limit, they wouldn't be cruisers.

 

@cross_trainer already calculated average weights for them during title reigns and the average is identical. If you want to include his less successful years after he lost the title, then keep in mind that we should also include his LHW years.

Marciano was a bit shorter, but he was also stockier guy who never fought below LHW limit.

So you don't believe that fighters consistently fight above limits in modern times? Then you argue against facts at this point.

 

Fair point but I specifically included his weight against Liston since this was the main crux of CT's argument which was more than Marciano ever weighed (2nd bout). Also I don't understand why he would bring him up (presumably) to prove people of Marciano's stature could still compete against Liston..... when he was squashed like a bug twice.

Regarding Patterson's "less successful years"..... did he get worse or was he hindered by two top five H2H monsters preventing him from getting to the title? He did well enough, was ranked in every year, drew with Quarry (beat him imo) and was blatantly robbed against Elllis which would've made him champion for a third time.

Many here think Patterson was much better after losing the title.

Of course they do, but it's ridiculous. I don't know why it's not enforced, that you can't fight above your limit. In the UFC they fine you for every pound you go above the limit, or take a large percentage of your check. Whichever is higher.

 

How does Patterson getting crushed equate to Marciano getting crushed? The logic doesn’t apply…Tyson squashed much bigger men than Holyfield yet he did not crush the much smaller than his average opponent fighter. Boxing is a skill sport not one determined by weight.

 

He weighed staggering 194.5 lbs against Liston in rematch. He also clearly tried to bulk up to match Liston size and it didn't end up any better than when he was 189 lbs in the first fight.

Do you think there is significant difference between Floyd's size in the first and second fights?

That's different discussion, but Patterson wasn't bigger than Marciano.

I can understand some people thinking he became better (I disagree), but "much better" is not justifable. He had some close fights against lower level fighters like Quarry or Ellis, but that doesn't make him better than the younger self/

Some may argue that Patterson was at his best when he destroyed Moore and started his reign - he weighed only 182 lbs then. Why should we include his mid-60s fights, but exclude arguably his peak?

I don't disagree with you, I just say that CWs today are the size of Ali or Liston. Usyk didn't weigh below 200 lbs in any of his CW title fights in reality.

 

Vitali might be a bit of an issue, but Wlad's chin against Louis... yeah, that's not gonna end well.

 

Try reading what I actually said. I never said Patterson getting crushed equates to the same happening to Marciano (even if I do believe Marciano gets crushed anyways). I said bringing up Patterson as a Marciano sized heavyweight who had success after Marciano is not a good counter to that argument considering what happened to Patterson.

 

Even so you’re using one fight to state that. Forgetting Patterson didn’t just go into the ring with two 200 plus pound Hws and lose.
Boxing is a skill/ style sport as Usyk is so beautifully demonstrating. Most think Fury will crush him for example because of size. I can’t wait to win a lot of money betting on that one.

 

I'M NOT STATING ANYTHING BASED OFF ONE FIGHT. READ MY POST.

 

That's actually my point.

Quarry and Ellis were not "lower level fighters". Both were number 1 contenders around this time period and both made it to the finals of the tournament where Ellis become champion.

That is not anywhere near lower-level.

Well if we're going to be pedantic, the most relevant weight of Patterson is the one he weighed in against Liston which is what started the discussion in the first place.

Fair enough. Would you also call Deontay Wilder a cruiserweight because he came in at 212 in his best performance against Fury an elite SHW?

Do you also think Liston and Ali would be "mangled by Wlad or Fury" as well with the certainty CT did?

Keep in mind, Fury was dropped twice and failed to beat a "natural cruiser" in Wilder and actually had more success when Wilder came in heavier in their following bouts.

And Wlad also lost to a noticeably overweight at 225 Corrie Sanders who fought as low as 207 early in his career. Wouldn't he also qualify as a cruiser under these standards?