Lennox Lewis vs Rocky Marciano

The last sentence isn't true tho. There's a multitude of divisions because weight does indeed have a major bearing on things. Now we can debate the somewhat blurry and dynamic area where we see the point of diminishing return and functionality but boxing is absolutely and irrefutably affected by size.

 

Well i didn't actually say that, i think?

But it's a point that can be debated, yes.

 

Quite possibly on both counts.

 

It is lower level than Ali and Liston, that's my point. They weren't championship level fighters.

Then Patterson weighed 189 and 194 lbs against Liston. That's not bigger than Marciano.

No, because it's the lowest weight Wilder fought at in his prime. He consistently weighed above 220 lbs and even carried 230+lbs well. He's small for a modern HW, but he's a HW nonetheless. Why do you struggle with taking averages, instead of focusing on extreme examples?

I don't think @cross_trainer is that certain about these claims, he always underlines the uncertainty of hypothetical matchups across the eras.

No, I don't agree that they wouldn't be able to compete. That's because I believe great fighters could beat opponents from higher weight classes, not because I think Ali and Liston were the size of modern HWs. Usyk is doing fine at HW because he's a great fighter who is CW-sized.

I also don't like the idea that if you agree with someone, you have to agree with everything. I defended his claims about size debate, not about boxing.

 

I don't think it would nix Louis' competitiveness as styles and dimensions must surely be a factor.

To exaggerate would a 205 pound 6'3" lean Thomas Hearns type heavyweight with a solid jaw and some stamina be more competitive than a Frazier type? I really don't think Frazier's overall package is overly suited to beating good 6"6" 250+ pound guys and nor is The Rock's. Joe and Rock don't bring enough to the table to beat the bigger ATG's not long after them called Liston and Foreman, for mine. I like them to put forth a better showing against guys like Ali and Holmes personally.

Louis brings more to the table IMO and tho quality can surely be debated he did slay the odd giant and has the one punch power to topple them if things pan out.

 

Well perhaps you might go the other way in 13 years time!!! Hopefully we will both still be here to enjoy it!

Plausible if not carved in stone.

Usyk, no matter how much modernists want to finesse the narrative shows IMO that guys around 210 can still compete regardless that he weighed a bit more by the time he competed at Heavyweight. But sure unless he beats Fury regardless of what he weighs he hasn't dominated anything as such.

So it would be an uphill battle. That feeds back to my own opinions on diminishing returns. However take a Joe Louis from early on and whack him into now or 1990 or whatever and he'd likely be coming in around 210-220 with no ill effects.

Trouble is you are are only befriending one side of things. Ali and Liston trained down to their fighting weight. In today's climate they'd be notably bigger, functionally bigger. If drying out trends explain your cruiserweight theory to be correct well the trend of bulking up in the open division shows they weren't cruiserweights. Picture Michael Spinks via Shilstone whacking on 30 pounds or more in order to mix it with the big boys. Now picture Ali doing it over a period of time. At 6'3" it's entirely conceivable we are looking at a 230 pound Ali who loses very very little if anything as he gains strength and force. Suddenly we aren't looking at a cruiserweight that's for sure.

So the inverse is also extremely relevant.

What weight do you actually think Usyk entered the ring at when he was a Cruiserweight?

I certainly won't be mentioning Willard! I don't think Primo was but the fact is he was lineal champ way back when he was. It also showed Louis having the power to chop down a giant that was good enough to be that lineal holder. So it's worthy of mention IMO. The few big men Louis did fight he excelled against so size alone isn't necessarily beating him.

But he wasn't if we take Louis' weights when he was above 200 of which there were plenty at his peak. There are no weight divisions above 200 except heavyweight. The gap between welter and middle is completely irrelevant. Why don't we go the full monty and talk about bantam upward? Then we can pretend Primo was 10 divisions above Louis. Does that sound just a little absurd? Above 200 pounds is heavyweight.

And Shavers had Shaversesque power, a great many times at 210 and under. One of his greatest wins was at 206.

Despite being light and spindly by his standards he almost decapitated Fury and did better than he did in the next two matches.

Wilder was also immensely less skilled than Ali and Liston. Your mention of height supports my opinion that dimension and style solidly factor into the poundages that can be effective.

I'd be shocked if Marciano won either fight as would the massive majority of the board. Marciano was struggling quite a bit with these "same kinds of opponents" where as Liston and Ali were mostly cruising. The gap between 187 and 212 for me is substantially more daunting than the one between 212 and 237. That's my stance per diminishing returns.

Ali could most certainly compete today IMO. I believe Liston could too and I'm sure i'm not on my Pat Malone. I agree Marciano couldn't.

Ali could add 20 "modern" pounds across 6 months in today's climate and be above where Usyk is in the division, IMO. Absolutely.

 

I meant at HW…mostly. Even at lower weights men are jumping around divisions like nothing. As u move up the ladder it gets less important. We’ve had former mw champions win belts and LHWs etc at Hw. There is to much emphasis put on it imo.

 

both LL and Fortune offered more there than I've seen in any S-HW fight in recent years... Crap division - SEPERATE it - 6'5" plus, 225lb plus = Super-Heavyweight... Goodbye.

then HW's are back to normal, equalling a much better division... Land of the Giants in their own division.

 

Same as:
Lennox Lewis vs Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, James J. Braddock, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Joe Frazier, Leon Spinks, Michael Spinks...

I'm more extreme than @White Bomber