Leonard vs. Duran--Stomach Cramps?

What exactly do you think someone who quits in the middle of the fight is going to say? Of course, he's going to makeup some sort of illness. They'd have lynched him in Panama if they knew he quit because he thought he wouldn't win. His cornermen, manager and translator all said the 'cramps' was fabricated. Of course, he probably felt a bit ill from what he ate, i'm not disputing that, however, he didn't have to quit at exactly that moment in that round.

 

Yeah, it was such a severe beating that Leonard was installed as favourite as soon as the rematch was announced.

 

The answer is known. And that is that ALL of his corner did not know why he quit. Simple as that. Accept reality. He went to the hospital about SIX hours after the fight. Yeah, some agony he was in. If I ever have severe stomach cramps I hope they're the type Duran had.


He could have been ill at 3am...after all the good food he gorged and drink imbibed at his party that night. Like your mate Shep said "you don't just go back to your hotel for hours and then go to the hospital." :good

 

The point is, he quit.
And we all agree there's likely a reason for him quitting.

Duran gave a reason.
What makes your reason - or anyone's reason - any more credible than his ?

Given his history as a fighter why is it more likely that he "quit because he thought he wouldn't win" ?
It's not likely that he'd just think "I wont win" if he's healthy. That's extremely unlikely.

I actually think the fight being FIXED is more likely if you want to take the cynical approach. Even great fighters have been known to throw fights for money, but great fighters by definition dont just suddenly think "I wont win" and quit - there'd have to be a whole load of pain to make a great fighter quit.

But it's unfair to be so cynical. There's no evidence Duran was involved in a fix.
There's no evidence that Duran had a quitter-mentality - in fact, there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
There seems to be some evidence that he ate a stupid amount of food before the fight.

Has Duran ever withdrawn his claim that he was suffering stomach cramps ?

 

I dont think his corner are the most objective people to be able to judge Duran's actions.
They were emotionally and financially involved.
They may have thought "stomach cramps" was a lame excuse. It's often hard to empathize with someone who's saying they are sick. Especially when you are overcome by your disappointment in them.

A lot of people wont go to hospital until they really fear for their lives. It's not unusual to wait six hours or a lot more before checking in.

It's easy to be sceptical. But Duran's story of stomach cramps seems no less likely that all these allegations about him lying.

 

Most of them don't go to a party for six hours, eating and drinking. :good



Why are they not objective? By being 'financially' involved then they'd have more likely gone with the 'cramps' story as Duran's purse was initially withheld. However, they're perplexed. Watch the fight. They have no idea what Duran's doing.


Here's a tip: when in doubt- watch the damn thing yourself. Always works for me. :bbb

 

I can't believe this is still being discussed.
I suspect MWDC is training here to become immune to whining as preparation for hard moments with his young offspring :think


Duran simply quit because he was being embarressed and didn't think he could beat Leonard when undertrained and thought he'd get an immediate rematch in which he would give his best. Simple as that.

 

How do you know ?

 

I used to be quite a fanatic soccer player. There was this defender that i always used to pass by (as attacker) but at a certain moment i slacked, stopped training, out of shape , etc. Several months later i played again and the very same defender was stopping me every single time, making me look amateurish at times. The idea that someone who you beat when prepared and in shape makes you look foolish when you're underprepared makes you arrogant and makes your ego think "**** it, i don't need this, i'll get him when im in shape" and quit.

Can i be 100% sure that the same thing happened to Duran? No.

But given the circumstances, having already beat Duran, being out of shape, the way he waves his arm to say "**** it, i don't need this" (Duran said this himself: "i gave him an immediate rematch, i thought i would get one too"), the way he didn't even seem to care when Leonard hit him after he quit, the fact that he went to eat and party first only to check in at the hospital very late at night after the party, to be released after a short night there..... makes me pretty sure that it was the reason he quit.


Oh, and i don't doubt that poor Duran had tummy cwamps. Nor do i doubt that that was put forward as the reason to his blatant quitting job, because the reason "i didn't bother trying being in this bad shape and wanted to take him in a rubbermatch" would've made him lose all his fans. I don't find it a coincidence that in all the 100 something fights he had, the stomach cramps got the better of him when he was being embarressed while out of shape by someone he already beat.

 

Menstrual cramps?

Duran carried a purse? Yep, gotta be menstrual cramps.

 

Correction: Common sense, as well as the reliable evidence and objective testimony says one thing: Duran quit because he was frustrated -with himself for not preparing properly and for thinking only about $$$, and with the prospect of losing to Leonard of all people.

... and that is from the self-proclaimed biggest Duran fan on ESB: ME.

I love the guy. I love Elvis too, but as he got older his discipline deteriorated and he abused himself -to death. His movies sucked too.

Duran and Elvis deserve honest fans.

 

And nobody knows ridiculous like Perfesser Clownshoes!

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"Shhhh! Don't tell anyone I'm Revolver!"

 

OK, you compare yourself on the football pitch to Roberto Duran in a boxing ring to make a point. You compare your own mentality to his, and I can understand the reasoning. That's all well and good but it's not a solid argument.
What you say makes sense, except for the fact that Roberto Duran also gives a reason and I see no reason why he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt.
It's not like he's a fighter who habitually pulled out of fights or quit or got stopped and always had an excuse.

I could recount a time I ate too much, and was out and suddenly I really needed to take a ****, and I was getting acute pain every few minutes that would stop me dead in my tracks for a second and I knew the last thing I needed to do was physical exertion. I could say Duran's actions are not at all out of line with a man with abdominal pain/stomach/bowel trouble.

Maybe Duran did go eat and party before going to hospital that night. No one disputes the fact that his ridiculous eating habits maybe caused the whole thing. Duran was obviously stupid with it.

Actually, isn't that the usual excuse most boxers give without losing their fans ?
"My heart wasn't in it tonight, I didn't train right, I was out of shape, my mind wasn't right. I apologise to my fans and promise all my fans I will be back to seek revenge"
I actually think Duran would have been given an EASIER time if he'd just said that, because people are so sceptical of illness/injury claims.

I see no "coincidence". I guess you have to be looking for it to see it.
I dont think he was being embarrassed until he quit, the quitting was the embarrassing bit. Leonard was clowning a bit and scored a few pot-shots but I could equally say it's Duran's illness that allows Leonard to clown and score pot-shots. I guess even you would agree that it was at least Duran being "out of shape".
But you reject the "stomach pains" excuse.

There seems no strong reason NOT to give him the benefit of the doubt on his claims.

Of course, none of it changes the fact that Duran got beat fair and square.
I just dont see why everyone insists on painting Duran as a liar and someone who quit easily on this night. He was a great enough fighter for me to give him the benefit of the doubt over the stomach cramps excuse.

 

No, that's the excuse that their fans make for them. Tyson was shot past prison, Holyfield had a heart ailment/shoulder injury/steroid side effects/whatever. There is a big difference between the excuse that fans put forward and the fighter himself does.
When a fighter blatantly quits and says "well i didn't care because i was in bad shape", this will make him lose tons of supporters, even if the supporters would've made the same excuses otherwise. Fans are not very logic most of the time, as you can see on the general forum. They make 180 degree turnes in their opinion of a fighter with every new fight.

Explain that to me.
Tell me, in which of Duran's other fights was he embarrassed the way Leonard did, on national TV?

Oh come on. That's ridiculous. Everyone remembers Leonard making that windmill motion with his right, then easily nailing Duran with a hard jab. He was doing the shuffle in front of Duran. He nailed durran with some combinations and got off the ropes before Duran could land his left hook, in fact he was made to miss amatuerishly.
Put yourself in Durans shoes. Your opponent is making stupid gestures, makes you miss and he hits you in return. You've boxed yourself, right? Then you will know how embarrassing and frustrating it is when your opponent is not only outclassing you in that you can't hit him and he can hit you, but is also making a fool out of you. Not to mention the extra frustration because you already beat him when you were in shape.

Sure, i never denied that Duran was out of shape.
And yes, probably that's why Leonard was able to clown.

But the point is not WHY Leonard was able to clown, the point is that he was clowning and embarrassing Duran, taking away his will to fight.
Maybe it was his illness, maybe not. All of that came only after the fight.

When you watch the fight, you'll see an out of shape Duran missing, not being able to reach Leonard, throwing a 1-2 when Leonard simply backs up, missing a left hook while Leonard is already 90 degrees away, and then he quits. Did you hear the reporters say during round 1-8 "wow, Duran is really looking like an ill man in there" ?
Did you see Duran rush out of the ring after he quit to take a big dump? No, he stayed in there for quite some time and wasn't showing any signs of illness whatsoever.

His cornermen, as MWDC pointed out, all thought otherwise as well.

Like i said before, i don't doubt that he could have had some stomach cramps or whatever. But so what? You're in there for the championship of the world. You think Ali had no trouble pain in his abdomal region against Frazier, not to mention his hips? I didn't see him quit. And it's not like Duran was wobbling around from the pain. To me it looked like an out of shape and very frustrated man, maybe he had some sickness, but not to the extend that it legitmates a quitting job.


Next time his camp should reach a little deeper in the pocket and at least produce a shoulder injury or something when going to the hospital after some partying and eating.
I mean for ****s sake, how many fighters in history have quit because they had "stomach cramps"???



By the way, i may sound a bit harsh here. For clarity: i think Duran proved his heart plenty of times just like for instance Liston and Vitali did, BUT, some of the excuses being put forward or straightout pathetic. But in the end it does put them a category below a Marciano in the heart department.