Leonard vs. Duran--Under Perfect Conditions

Yes, and Sports Illustrated famously denounced Angelo Poletti's card as "a monument to indecision." I compared my own card with that of a dozen co-workers who also scored it the next day. Ten of us agreed with Duran and the official scoring that Roberto won it in the first ten rounds. (Half of those were SRL partisans, making that early dominance all the more impressive.)

In Boston, WCVB-TV sportscaster Don Gillis read the live detailed report by UPI during his segment on the 11 p.m. news that Duran had won nine of the first ten rounds in disbelief, repeatedly emphasizing that it was "unofficial." But it was just at that moment in Montreal that El Cholo returned to his corner and announced to his seconds that he had clinched it on the cards. As it turned out, both he and the UPI ringside reporter were entirely correct. Duran did know he had it in the bank, said as much at the time, so Ray's subsequent rally was meaningless, making the final result misleadingly close. In reality, SRL didn't do much better over the first ten than Palomino had. (Carlos did touch down, but was never seriously hurt, while the long left hook which staggered Ray and left his head ringing for three rounds connected with 1:26 left in round two.)

At the time, the notion that SRL could lose nine of ten rounds to anybody, even Duran, was shocking. The wipe out of Green, and boxing lesson Ray handed Benitez was still fresh in everybody's mind. The idea that Ray fought the wrong fight in Montreal is strictly revisionism. Watch him stop Chiaverini, Ranzany, Price, Benitez and Green. Take a look at him dealing with big, strong middleweight Marcos Geraldo. How is it that he wouldn't be expected to successfully stand up to an older and smaller lightweight, even as great as Duran? Watch the first ten rounds of Montreal, score them, then tell me Ray did "much better" in New Orleans than Duran did in Canada, because it's only that first ten rounds out of 15 that truly matter in their initial bout. After seven rounds, Ray was only up by two or three points in New Orleans against a dreadfully unprepared and motivated Duran.

Janks Morton was at least one principal in Ray's camp who did not believe SRL would have won a rematch with the Duran of Montreal, and has admitted as much on camera.

 

Leonard fights mobile, defensive, picking his battles and Duran just can't get his best shots off on him and gets outpointed. In the first fight Leonard was on ***** street for a few rounds after Duran clocked him in the 2nd round a cautious clever Leonard doesn't get caught and outboxes Duran

 

Ah so DeJesus got the better of Duran in their trilogy, glad we cleared that up :yep

 

Well, again, that's just it. Can Ray know enough to be that cautious and clever without first experiencing Duran's power, skill and saavy in an initial bout?

Here, I'm reiterating my assertion again that for SRL, the "perfect" condition would always have to be a rematch. What evidence is there that a first time meeting with both in prime condition could have gone his way? My hard core contention is that Ray would always have to lose to him before being able to defeat him.

 

Thats a good question, I feel Leonard got better as a result of Montreal learning about his strengths and weaknesses as a boxer and gaining modesty/fear, which helps a boxer to not over estimate themselves

Either way I was assuming the question was 'If both were at their absolute best they could be'

 

That does raise an interesting question though. Would Vita have been able to win a first time match in a title fight over the championship distance? Duran was at a different level in his defenses than he was in non-title affairs. (It's still a testimonial to the prowess of his lightweight prime that even some of his non-title fights were broadcast on network television. He had 23 non-title fights between Buchanan and DeJesus III to keep him occupied and the public entertained. Just another reason today's lighter weight champions suck, and retire with a piddling number of total bouts.)

 

You did interpret cross_trainer's original question correctly. He asked if Ray came in with the right game plan. As I see it, that does require him to compete in a rematch. For Duran, that means no eight million dollar guarantee, but that the much larger purse goes to the winner, period, which would probably take away that stomach ache. After seven rounds in New Orleans, an ill prepared Duran was only trailing by two points on two cards, and three on a third card. Eight rounds remained. If an ill prepared Duran was still in the thick of the scoring with over half the match remaining, what happens if he remains in Montreal trim? (He really should have maintained his lightweight practice of competing between title bouts, to sustain that conditioning and sharpness.)

 

I personally always thought Leonard was in control in the rematch, I thought both fighters bossed each fight even though some saw either fight as 'close' I didn't.

Thats the problem, both wins were so clear that it always begs the question 'well what was the huge difference between the 2 fights'. Some answer 'Duran wasn't near his best in the rematch' some will answer 'Leonard fought the wrong fight in the first'. And usually it boils down to who you're a fan of, I think there's elements of both

 

And that's the whole essence of what makes this such a compelling question.

For supporters of Duran, of course that argument is that Montreal is when both competitors where closest to their best. As El Cholo was the smaller, older man, Montreal has huge P4P ATG ramifications. (A secondary argument is that Roberto would have defeated Hagler first if the rule set for SRL-Hagler in 1987 had been in place for Duran in 1983. Also, Hagler was obviously far better for Duran than he was for Ray.)

If "Big Easy Ray" had been in Montreal, does he outmaneuver Roberto, or get run out of the ring? I think I may review Vilomar Fernandez shortly to further consider this. For 12 rounds, he flew around the ring with Duran in pursuit, before getting felled with body blows. Ray could take those punches. It wasn't SRL's most natural style, but he was certainly more than capable of executing it with his wheels. (One of his sparring partners said, "His legs are like steel bands!" Sparring with him was not a pleasant experience, according to some who knew. He wasn't the easy going punching bag Ali was.)

 

You've covered this subject brilliantly:yep

With the regard to the scoring i also could'nt believe my eyes & score totals back then that Duran had in effect romped & dominated the fight in a sense with ease. I'am actually guilty of the fact that back then i went & watched it again & again just too convince myself that Leonard won more rounds than he actually did & forced myself to agree with the shocking & phycophantic Leonard commentry teams to just reduce the point deficite to a more respectible level

But i've watched this fight again with my son about 3 times this last 18 months & it's just a hard fought dominating all the way through by Duran & i'am back to the score of 10/3/2 & i really just can't give Leonard anymore rounds as he just did'nt win them, he finished 2nd pracaticly all the way through the fight & no matter what he tried or attempted always fell short or was superseeded by a superior Duran counter.

It's one of those fights that people remember for the end part & forget what went earlier, true it was an absolute classic hard fought match up all the way to the end but it was Duran who did just more of everything in them. Looked a close tough fight from the nueteral standpoint but on a round 4 round scoring basis i just can't see Leonard winning more than 3 OK lets give him the even rounds & he's still a 5 round loser & in reality he was beat handsomely & thats the shock as this is Sugar Ray Leonard having his arse handed to him & i wonder if this went through the minds of the judges that night in that they too could'nt believe what they were seeing.

It's one of those conundrums that gets thrown up every now & again what with scoring a wide decision gives the impression of a stroll when as we know in reality it ai'nt, but under the 10 point system i can't for the life of me see how anyone can Leonard 3/4/5 rounds max & thats being generous........I've argued this for years that Duran outfought/outthought & OUTBOXED Leonard at his best on an equal playing field, well not so equal as Ray said i'am bigger/younger/stronger & faster than Duran....AGREED......but he's not the better Boxer & that was proven that night in Montreal:deal

Same goes for the New Orleans re-match as Leonards tentitive approuch & performence in that fight gets him no where against the Duran of Montreal & not the sluggish plodder that turned up for the $8Million & would again has chased Leonard all over the ring & won a UD, as you said up till Duran jumped ship it was 2/2/1 & that was with Leonard doing nothing & Duran less.

There's no escape from it that Leonard loses on an equal playing field 2nd time around. He failed the 1st time & there's no escape the 2nd time.

I applaud every one of your excellent & superb postes

 

good post I had Duran by 11-4 and felt he won most of the late rounds. Palomino said it best when he said he could tell when Duran took off his robe in New O that he was in nowhere near the shape as Montreal and that he would prob. lose.

 

Hagler himself said that Duran hit him with more rights in 83 than Sugar Ray in 87. He thought Duran was a much harder fight than Leonard.

 

Leonard would win every time. He is the more skilled boxer as well as strategiest than Duran. Hart and will are good things to have but they only get you so far. This is assuming that Duran has any hart or spine for that matter. He did not have a tummy ache or shoulder injury when he quit against Leonard. He has no hart. Leonard exposed this in their second fight.

 

Always struck by your intellectual objectivity Duodenum.

 

Am I wrong in assuming that if these are under the most perfect conditions that Ray would've had that ideal experience of fighting Duran even without having fought him? Duran also would be at his ultimate best as a WW like in Montreal where he won. In a sense, this seems to distort the actuality of history by giving the benefit of the doubt for needing that experience of having fought Duran in order to beat Duran. So the question begs does Leonard need to be at his ultimate best, or for his ultimate best for someone like Duran. I think the distinction is important. If we could quantify all this in million parallel universes we could have the answer. Unfortunately we don't. I think time is that fragic were if two ATGs like these fought 100 times it would be just a bit different each time... with something more dramatic or less dramatic occurring at a different point in time than in a previous contest.

Without getting overly philosophical about the whole question I think you have to honestly slightly favor Duran. Just slightly... he did do it under great conditions the first time out. In the end that's all that really matters.