Lets be honest. Muhammad Ali is good, but not that great...

Can not believe some of these posts comparing one of the ATGs in Ali to the very average lot in the Heavyweight division now....it is like staring into a Bottomless pit of Madness.!!!

 

I think it's the unquestioning adulation of Ali as the indisputable #1 HW ever that annoys people. I'm one of those that feel that status is not beyond argument. There's guys I'd pick over him H2H and one of those is Norton, who I think may have gotten some bad decisions against him.

 

I definetly think he’s the greatest at HW. But in p4p sense, he can get overrated.

 

"lets be honest"

Learned a few words from Trumpie there

 

Yes he had a better chin. He was young and got stunned.

On the flip side he took bombs from ATG puncher George Foreman (you know; the Foreman who came back 20
years later fat and out of shape and became lineal champion) and didn’t flinch. He took countless hooks off Joe Frazier. And you think he’s going to be worried about Dillian Whyte!!!

 

Because it´s all subjective.

 

Indeed.
Ali even aknowledged that he just couldn't beat Norton, and he thanked the judges for beating Norton for him in their 3rd fight.
I do appreciate his honesty about that though, eventhough he kept it kinda cryptic most of the time. Still that doesn't help Norton one bit as he had to put up with being beaten by a couple of judges.

 

When did he beat Holmes?

 

I meant to say he could have beat them all. He was beyond shot by the time he got to Holmes. Just the mere fact that he fought basically 3 different generations of ATGs there and he could have beat them all says how great he is.

Basically he would have been the best on Listons prime era, best of foreman/frazier prime era and IMO best of Holmes prime era. I'm not sure if he would be the best of a prime Tyson era as I think Tyson was the best h2h ever.

Honestly, h2h I see:
1) Tyson
2) Ali
3) Lewis
4) Wlad/Vitaly
5) Fury (this is a weird one as he's untested and he nearly got killed by Wilder but it feels like he would outbox anyone with that height and reach combined with speed 8/10 aside from when he gets caught. Guys like Lewis and Tyson would get inside and stop him though, probably Joshua too).
6) Foreman
7) Wilder/Joshua
8) Holyfield/Bowe
9) Frazier
10) Louis
11) Liston
12) Marciano

I think certain stylistic matchups would mean anyone could beat anyone, but generally, that's the betting line I would go with. And TBH, the way Frazier was manhandled by Foreman, I'm not even sure if the likes of him and Marciano could take on big guys like David Tua.

 

Prime 209 pounds Ali didnt have the same stance, weight and punch resistance as the 220+ version.

You are crazy to think otherwise. 209 lbs against 240-50 men...

 

You get all your opinions from the HW Blog. An Ali hating website that claims Klitschko's win over a shot to bits Mormeck is better than Ali's win over Foreman. not just claims it either , but goes into great detail to try and prove it.

http://www.heavyweightblog.com/4082...n-and-wladimir-klitschko-vs-jean-marc-mormeck

 

Norton definitely got some bad decisions against Ali. I think Norton had Ali's number. Styles makes fights.

Part of Ali's popularity or notoriety was due to the way he carried himself, things he did and said and stances his took.

With those things said, speaking strictly about boxing, Ali was a great HW. At his best, he possessed a combination of size, hand speed, mobility and pure boxing ability that had never been seen at HW before.

Once again, at his best, not the Ali of later years who resorted to rope-a-dope or got questionable decisions, Ali was in a class of his own. He was a big HW for his day that could fight like a welter weight.

It's a testament to his greatness that when his physical abilities started to diminish, he still found ways to win. He was such a talented fighter and had such a good ring IQ that he'd generally still find ways to win.

That's not a trivial thing. If Wilders power goes will he still find ways to win? Take away Tyson Furrys mobility, does he still win? I think not.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. Nobody is denying ALi was great. Hell, I think he's got a good case for #1 and have no problem with it. My problem is with the guys that go "pfffft! Ali would have destroyed THAT guy by round 3" and you know damn well that Ali would have struggled with the dude in question and that their remark is typical thoughtless knee-jerk chatter.

 

I agree with you. I can see where the God-like worship of Ali can get annoying.

 

You need to seek out the knowledgeable and objective posters.

What was so hugely impressive about him?

Come on now.

Look at his ability.

His unique footwork and hand speed.

Look at who he beat.

Look at how he mentally beat a guy like Foreman whilst past his best, when people were genuinely fearing for his health, as they thought Foreman was literally going to destroy him.

The 'Rumble' is one of the greatest wins in the history of the sport. Taunting a monster puncher in his prime, telling him he hit like a woman etc, in order to use his aggression against him to sap his energy.

Sure, he had gift wins in the mid to late 70's. But look at his heart, his chin, his desire etc.

He's one of the greatest HW's of all time.