Lets compare Pretty Boy to Pacman in an ATG sense

trampie · Nov 16, 2009

Early careers
Pacman started his pro career at 16 years of age at 106 lbs, he won his first World title at Flyweight 112lbs a few days short of 20 years of age, Manny had won 22 of his first 23 fights on his way to getting his first World title shot, all Mannys fights leading up to his World title shot had been at home in the Philippines except the last one which was in Japan, when he won the title it was an excellent win against Sasakul in Thailand .
Floyd was also at 16 years of age when he was starting his senior amateur career, Floyd was the National Golden Gloves Champion at 106 pounds when he was 16 years old, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 112 pounds as a 17 year old, Floyd was United States
Amateur Featherweight champion at 18, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 125 pounds at 19 years old and represented the United States at the Olympics where Mayweather lost by a controversial decision in the semi-finals, the U.S. team officially protested. Many who saw the bout, including the referee (who mistakenly raised Mayweather's hand when the decision was read), believed that Mayweather had won, he had to settle for bronze, Mayweather ended up winning 84 out of 90 amateur bouts.

It is difficult to compare their early careers as one was a pro and one was an amateur, it is unfair to say that Pacman was better than Pretty Boy as a teenager just because he was a pro, I would imagine that boxing authorites in most parts of the World would not give a pro licence to a 16 year old boy, infact it could be said that Mayweathers amateur career was as successful as Mannys early pro career , another interesting thing is that Mayweather was exactly the same weight as Manny at 16 years old, 106 lbs, they are in boxing terms the same size, they have progressed through the weights at a similar rate from 16 years old to 30 year olds.

Championship careers
Pacman won the WBC flyweight title defended it once then lost it.
He then won the IBF Super Bantemweight title and defended it three times {not including a draw for a clash of heads}
Pacman then wins the WBC Super Featherweight title, does not defend it.
He then wins the WBC Light Featherweight title, does not defend it.
Finally Pacman wins the WBO Welterweight title, at a catchweight.

I make that 9 title wins and defences at 5 different weights {including the last catchweight Welterweight title}.
50 wins - 3 losses - 2 draws

Pretty Boys championship career started with him winning the WBC Super Featherweight title at 21 years of age and he defended it 8 times,
Floyd then won the WBC Lightweight title and defended it 3 times, Floyd then wins the WBC Super Light Welterweight title, and does not defend it.
Then Floyd wins the IBF Welterweight title and then he wins the WBC version of the Welterweight title and goes on to defend the WBC Welterweight title once, Floyd also won the WBC Light Middleweight title.
PS Floyd has never fought outside his home country as a pro.

I make that 18 title wins and defences at 5 different weights for Floyd.
40 wins - 0 losses - 0 draws

Weighing it all up.
Both boxers started at the same weight at the same age and are currently performing at the same weight now.
Unfair to compare early careers, but it is fair to say both men were equally successful.
Their championship careers Mayweather to my eye has been a lot more successful with 18 championships to Pacquiao's 9 {I am not including stepping stone titles like international belts or IBO or even Ring magazine belts},
Pacquiao has also suffered 3 losses, which in my book counts as a negative when comparing the two, also I think that Floyd is a better technician.
So all in all, I still have Pretty Boy ahead of Pacman in the ATG stakes, if Pretty Boy beats Pacman head-to-head, I will rank Pretty Boy well ahead of Pacman, if Pacman beats Pretty Boy head-to-head, I will just about rank Manny higher. {I think Pretty Boy beats Manny by UD if they meet}.

lefthook31 · Nov 16, 2009

Floyd is the better fighter currently. Hes never been in situations where he was knocked down, out or drew. Hes also moved up in weight when his body was not fully filled out and I think lately hes been getting some unfair criticism. People just dismissed the Marquez fight as Floyd being much bigger after his complete dominance, but Pac proved he was a big man too by beating down Cotto.
That being said, like Floyd, Manny has improved quite a bit as a pro, maybe moreso than Floyd has, so hes earned the right to fight for the title of P4P best in boxing right now. Floyd just doesnt understand that boxing fans are only about "what have you done lately", and as long as he wants to be called P4P best and command huge paydays, he has to back it up in the ring by fighting the best or he should get out. Its really as simple as that.

trampie · Nov 16, 2009

lefthook31 said: ↑

Floyd is the better fighter currently. Hes never been in situations where he was knocked down, out or drew. Hes also moved up in weight when his body was not fully filled out and I think lately hes been getting some unfair criticism. People just dismissed the Marquez fight as Floyd being much bigger after his complete dominance, but Pac proved he was a big man too by beating down Cotto.
That being said, like Floyd, Manny has improved quite a bit as a pro, maybe moreso than Floyd has, so hes earned the right to fight for the title of P4P best in boxing right now. Floyd just doesnt understand that boxing fans are only about "what have you done lately", and as long as he wants to be called P4P best and command huge paydays, he has to back it up in the ring by fighting the best or he should get out. Its really as simple as that.
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Agree :good

Bing · Nov 16, 2009

While I agree that there the same size now. Manny rates above Floyd in my atg rankings as I believe he's beat better fighters than Floyd. If they fight and Floyd wins i'll rate him above pacquiao.

Genesis · Nov 17, 2009

Remember Floyd beat Oscar (a better version at 154) and Hatton (undefeated) before Pac.

horst · Nov 17, 2009

trampie said: ↑

Early careers
Pacman started his pro career at 16 years of age at 106 lbs, he won his first World title at Flyweight 112lbs a few days short of 20 years of age, Manny had won 22 of his first 23 fights on his way to getting his first World title shot, all Mannys fights leading up to his World title shot had been at home in the Philippines except the last one which was in Japan, when he won the title it was an excellent win against Sasakul in Thailand .
Floyd was also at 16 years of age when he was starting his senior amateur career, Floyd was the National Golden Gloves Champion at 106 pounds when he was 16 years old, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 112 pounds as a 17 year old, Floyd was United States
Amateur Featherweight champion at 18, Floyd was National Golden Gloves Champion at 125 pounds at 19 years old and represented the United States at the Olympics where Mayweather lost by a controversial decision in the semi-finals, the U.S. team officially protested. Many who saw the bout, including the referee (who mistakenly raised Mayweather's hand when the decision was read), believed that Mayweather had won, he had to settle for bronze, Mayweather ended up winning 84 out of 90 amateur bouts.

It is difficult to compare their early careers as one was a pro and one was an amateur, it is unfair to say that Pacman was better than Pretty Boy as a teenager just because he was a pro, I would imagine that boxing authorites in most parts of the World would not give a pro licence to a 16 year old boy, infact it could be said that Mayweathers amateur career was as successful as Mannys early pro career , another interesting thing is that Mayweather was exactly the same weight as Manny at 16 years old, 106 lbs, they are in boxing terms the same size, they have progressed through the weights at a similar rate from 16 years old to 30 year olds.

Championship careers
Pacman won the WBC flyweight title defended it once then lost it.
He then won the IBF Super Bantemweight title and defended it three times {not including a draw for a clash of heads}
Pacman then wins the WBC Super Featherweight title, does not defend it.
He then wins the WBC Light Featherweight title, does not defend it.
Finally Pacman wins the WBO Welterweight title, at a catchweight.

I make that 9 title wins and defences at 5 different weights {including the last catchweight Welterweight title}.
50 wins - 3 losses - 2 draws

Pretty Boys championship career started with him winning the WBC Super Featherweight title at 21 years of age and he defended it 8 times,
Floyd then won the WBC Lightweight title and defended it 3 times, Floyd then wins the WBC Super Light Welterweight title, and does not defend it.
Then Floyd wins the IBF Welterweight title and then he wins the WBC version of the Welterweight title and goes on to defend the WBC Welterweight title once, Floyd also won the WBC Light Middleweight title.
PS Floyd has never fought outside his home country as a pro.

I make that 18 title wins and defences at 5 different weights for Floyd.
40 wins - 0 losses - 0 draws

Weighing it all up.
Both boxers started at the same weight at the same age and are currently performing at the same weight now.
Unfair to compare early careers, but it is fair to say both men were equally successful.
Their championship careers Mayweather to my eye has been a lot more successful with 18 championships to Pacquiao's 9 {I am not including stepping stone titles like international belts or IBO or even Ring magazine belts},
Pacquiao has also suffered 3 losses, which in my book counts as a negative when comparing the two, also I think that Floyd is a better technician.
So all in all, I still have Pretty Boy ahead of Pacman in the ATG stakes, if Pretty Boy beats Pacman head-to-head, I will rank Pretty Boy well ahead of Pacman, if Pacman beats Pretty Boy head-to-head, I will just about rank Manny higher. {I think Pretty Boy beats Manny by UD if they meet}.
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Good background knowledge in this post, but I would disagree a little with the focus of your argument.

To me, this post is a bit like saying:

"Oscar De La Hoya is a greater fighter than Marvin Hagler because Oscar won titles in more weight divisions. Oscar won titles in 6 divisions, Marvin won titles in 1 division. Six beats one"

To reduce the argument to focusing on one numerical statistic doesn't really tell the full story. Oscar did win titles in more weight divisions, but that is only one facet of a boxing career, and it doesn't tell the full story anyway, because Oscar did not beat the best man in the division for all of those titles, so he was not a de facto champion at all of these weights (Bredahl at sfw and Sturm at mw were clearly not close to being the top man in the division). So although Oscar was a 6-div champ by numbers, one numerical statistic cannot tell the full story. For me, Hagler beat better fighters and was clearly the greater fighter, but this truth cannot be proven by numbers or statistics.

I think your analysis does a similar thing, but instead of focusing on weight divisions, it focuses on title defences.

Sven Ottke made more title defences than Sugar Ray Leonard, and retired with less career losses than SRL. Does the logic in the thread-starting post apply here too?

OK, Floyd made more title defences, but that is a numerical statistic. If you look beyond the numbers, you would find...

Among Floyd's title defences:

Gregorio Vargas
Victoriano Sosa
Phillip N'Dou
Henry Bruseles
Carlos Genera
****** Juuko
Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios

Among Pacquiao's wins that were not for 1 of the 4 major world titles:

Marco Antonio Barrera (1st fight)
Erik Morales (their 2nd fight)
Oscar Larios
Erik Morales (their 3rd fight)
Marco Antonio Barrera (their 2nd fight)
Oscar De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton

You know, you tell me which is the more significant and impressive body of work there?

Numbers and statistics are useful, but they are only of peripheral importance when considered alongside a deeper examination of a fighters' resume I think. There is some merit to this thread, as Floyd has had a good career, and has an outstanding pedigree and I suppose there is a case to be made for him being the greater fighter at this stage, but I think I would disagree with this thread because if you look deeper than the numbers, at the resume and other factors such as achievements of weight-jumping, I think Pacquiao has a clear edge on Money May at the moment. :good

asero · Nov 17, 2009

just compare their hearts and you would know the difference.

Ezzard · Nov 17, 2009

I agree with Popkins.

I'd also argue that Floyd is defintiely the bigger man of the two. I think that's obvious.

Morrissey · Nov 17, 2009

Definitely Pac is higher in the ATG sense.

lefthook31 · Nov 17, 2009

Popkins said: ↑

Good background knowledge in this post, but I would disagree a little with the focus of your argument.

To me, this post is a bit like saying:

"Oscar De La Hoya is a greater fighter than Marvin Hagler because Oscar won titles in more weight divisions. Oscar won titles in 6 divisions, Marvin won titles in 1 division. Six beats one"

To reduce the argument to focusing on one numerical statistic doesn't really tell the full story. Oscar did win titles in more weight divisions, but that is only one facet of a boxing career, and it doesn't tell the full story anyway, because Oscar did not beat the best man in the division for all of those titles, so he was not a de facto champion at all of these weights (Bredahl at sfw and Sturm at mw were clearly not close to being the top man in the division). So although Oscar was a 6-div champ by numbers, one numerical statistic cannot tell the full story. For me, Hagler beat better fighters and was clearly the greater fighter, but this truth cannot be proven by numbers or statistics.

I think your analysis does a similar thing, but instead of focusing on weight divisions, it focuses on title defences.

Sven Ottke made more title defences than Sugar Ray Leonard, and retired with less career losses than SRL. Does the logic in the thread-starting post apply here too?

OK, Floyd made more title defences, but that is a numerical statistic. If you look beyond the numbers, you would find...

Among Floyd's title defences:

Gregorio Vargas
Victoriano Sosa
Phillip N'Dou
Henry Bruseles
Carlos Genera
****** Juuko
Carlos Alberto Ramon Rios

Among Pacquiao's wins that were not for 1 of the 4 major world titles:

Marco Antonio Barrera (1st fight)
Erik Morales (their 2nd fight)
Oscar Larios
Erik Morales (their 3rd fight)
Marco Antonio Barrera (their 2nd fight)
Oscar De La Hoya
Ricky Hatton

You know, you tell me which is the more significant and impressive body of work there?

Numbers and statistics are useful, but they are only of peripheral importance when considered alongside a deeper examination of a fighters' resume I think. There is some merit to this thread, as Floyd has had a good career, and has an outstanding pedigree and I suppose there is a case to be made for him being the greater fighter at this stage, but I think I would disagree with this thread because if you look deeper than the numbers, at the resume and other factors such as achievements of weight-jumping, I think Pacquiao has a clear edge on Money May at the moment. :good
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Defenses and title fights are a factor, but not as much as who and when these guys fought their respective opponents. Floyd fought better fighters overall and at their respective best in their careers, as compared to Pac.

horst · Nov 17, 2009

lefthook31 said: ↑

Defenses and title fights are a factor, but not as much as who and when these guys fought their respective opponents. Floyd fought better fighters overall and at their respective best in their careers, as compared to Pac.
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I disagree completely. I don't think it is possible to justify saying Floyd has fought better fighters overall. He just hasn't. It isn't even very close IMO. But fair enough mate, your opinion.

lefthook31 · Nov 17, 2009

Lets see.

Common opponents
JMM Floyd shut out Pac went life and death with hard to say size was a factor after Pac handled Cotto and Hatton easily
ODLH both wins, Floyd at 54 Pac at 47
Hatton, both Ko's Floyd later, but stylistically he will almost always KO late.

Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Pacs good comp
Cotto by far best win at 45
Jmm draw possibly twice?
Morales x2 loss and win
Barrera x2 argueably done in the second fight
ODLH at 47
Diaz
Ledwaba
Lucero

I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.

horst · Nov 17, 2009

lefthook31 said: ↑

Lets see.

Common opponents
JMM Floyd shut out Pac went life and death with hard to say size was a factor after Pac handled Cotto
ODLH both wins, Floyd at 54 Pac at 47
Hatton, both Ko's Floyd later, but stylistically he will almost always KO late.

Floyds good comp
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Corley
Castillo x2
Ndou
Jesus Chavez
Diego Corrales
Angel Manfredy KO2
Carlos Hernandez
JMM
Hatton
ODLH at 54
Genaro Hernandez somewhat old

Pacs good comp
Cotto by far best win at 45
Jmm draw possibly twice?
Morales x2 loss and win
Barrera x2 argueably done in the second fight
ODLH at 47
Diaz
Ledwaba
Lucero

I dont really see how there is any dobut especially considering Floyd is undefeated and some of Pac's comp can be questionable as far as timing in their careers. Morales and Barrera were pretty beat on, and ODLH died to make weight.
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I'm not going to make a similarly skewed list of my own, but I think at least 80% of Classic posters would concur that Pacquiao's resume is clearly better.

lefthook31 · Nov 17, 2009

Popkins said: ↑

I'm not going to make a similarly skewed list of my own, but I think at least 80% of Classic posters would concur that Pacquiao's resume is clearly better.
Click to expand...

I dont know about that. Just the sheer number of better opponents alone puts Floyd ahead, not to mention Pac has knockout losses against no name opponents, and went life and death and drew with some of the better ones. Maybe some of the 80% can chime in?

Vanboxingfan · Nov 17, 2009

At the end of the day, we all agree they need to fight to see whose best. And if the fight never takes place you can bet your bottom dollar it will be PBF who gets greedy and never makes it happen.

I go back and forth with PBF, truthfully, I'd like to see he actually have to fight a couple of times, not just box but get in the trenches a' la' Duran and fight. Pac would force him to have to do that. PBF would probably have a speed advantage, but I think Pac's determination and power would force PBF to have to fight at some point in the contest. And in terms of comp, the Cotto win, surpasses any of PBF's wins.

Too bad SSM is past his best, he would have fit into this mix nicely.

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Lets compare Pretty Boy to Pacman in an ATG sense

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